WHEW!!Most SCATHING Article On TD Jakes Ever!

[Sister Alvear]

I really appreciate male leadership...I will step up to bat if the work needs me but I don´t have to be in the lime light...
I think it is God´s perfect plan for men to lead...however if they don´t there are a few Deborah´s still around...(no, I am not a Deborah)

[Mrs. LPW]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

Welcome to the 21, 21? Yea its the 21st century Marky Mark, the internet has the ability to take what previous could have been a private conversation and allows people to literally poop with their fingers spreading their joy across the nation.

OH dear... that is funny.

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by live4him

i really think we should quit talking about the MAGIC HOLY HAIR because we could talk all day about why we dont cut our hair and we still cant convince you that the Bible says not to do that, it really is a waist of time if you all cant agrre in one accord

its as plain as acts 2:38.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Not to be contentious sister,but I feel compelled to respond.
Ms Bratt... I appreciate your obvious passion on this issue, but I think your post neglects the economic realities of today compared with even 50-60 years ago, even more-so when compared with Bible times. For an average guy making about $40k, he’ll probably take home $28k after taxes... a little over $2300/month, which is really not a whole lot, especially in many of our cities and metropolitan areas. Lets say he has a wife and 2 or 3 kids. In most households today his one income is not sufficient to cover housing, transportation, utilities, clothing, etc… plus set aside money to save for their own retirement (remember, company-pensions are becoming obsolete!) future college for his kids and just having emergency savings for unexpected household expenses that may come up. These are not luxuries. These are [rightly] considered needs for the average working class/middle class family.

What I consider to be luxuries are:

multiple vehicles
eating out
cell phones
electronic equipment such as ipods, wii's, etc.
recreational vehicles
renting videos
name brand clothing
housing beyond one's financial state
ultra-expensive vacations to Disney World, etc.

Now, there's nothing wrong with most of the above, if one can actually afford it--but too many families (and their children) consider the above to be necessities. So their parents either work themselves to death or go into debt or both in order to provide it.

I would never call a savings account or utilities or college funds "luxuries." That's being a good steward.

You refer to the "biblical ideal and pattern" for a household, whereby the women stayed home. First of all, nothing in the bible makes any rule about a woman working or not outside the home.

I don't mind a woman working, and I don't feel it is outside of the biblical ideal IF she first tends to her home, husband and children. If her children are grown, or she has no children, then that would not be a problem. If her home isn't neglected by working outside the home, then great--her priorities are in order. If she is pleasing her husband, no problem.

However, I do think its a SHAME for a woman who doesn't NEED to to foist her children into the hands of strangers simply because she doesn't LIKE staying home.

And the Bible is pretty clear about what a Christian woman's priorities ought to be, both in illustrated principle and in clear cut scriptures.

Indeed, women stayed home with the kids, but that was more a function of socio-economic mores than Biblical command. But you seem to be neglecting the fact that in biblical times, economics were very different. As we all know ....they could grow food at home and not have to buy it at stores....For transportation, a couple of donkeys (which would keep reproducing other donkeys) could serve all their transportation needs ad infinitum...They didnt have to deal with 30-year mortgages in order to own their home...they didnt have to worry about saving money to live on in their retirement years (possibly 20+ years worth of savings to live on)... and most of the good paying jobs back then didnt require 4+ years of college ....etc, etc. So economy-wise, it's apples and oranges. Even the the virtuous woman in Proverbs 31 was a working woman---she just didnt have to leave travel some 20-30+ miles or so to find meaningful work, as many saints do today.

The virtuous woman got up early in the morning to see to the needs of her household. She put her family first. Not her business. Most of the chapter illustrates work that would probably have been done at home, and she participated in "good works" (ministered to the poor and needy) which is one of the things NT women are commanded to do.

More importantly, the chapter illustrates that she was not idle, and I am in no way supporting women staying at home being idle and lazy. But it is the lack of priority that concerns me, and within the church setting, it is an attitude that no longer defers to male authority, and supercedes it.

Essentially, women working outside of the home today is for the most part a necessity in order to maintain a decent (non-luxurious) standard of living.

TRFrance, as I said, I know women who are working because they need to, and I don't fault them for it, and I know women (with homes, husbands and small children to see to) who are working because they want to be able to buy the latest designer shoes whenever they feel like it, and they are at fault.

I know that God is very aware of how the economic realities have changed over time, so I dont believe God is as bothered by women leaving the home to work, [supposedly violating the biblical standard] as much as some Apostolics today seem to be.

What bothers me is that Apostolics are not bothered by it. I have stayed at home when things were tight, so tight that my weekly grocery budget for a family of 5 was $120.00. (That is within the last 3 years, by the way, not 10 years ago.) I know what its like to drive around an old, beat up rusty car. Most people, if the truth is told, are NOT willing to live frugally in order to be family-oriented.

I am aware of the economic issues, and my family has already felt the pinch. My husband was laid off from a good, steady job in December of 2005. He worked contract jobs intermittently out of state until the Lord blessed him with a good job in Tulsa just last September. For nearly three years we were just surviving, no getting ahead, no money to put in savings, no health insurance.

However, we bit the bullet, we did NOT go into debt or use credit cards to survive, paid cash for everything, and had beans and cornbread for dinner a LOT of nights. I shopped at Goodwill for my kids' school clothes, and we canceled my cell phone for awhile to pay for Sarah's piano lessons. Now, over 3 years later, we survived, and not only are we out of the hole, but we're building a small mountain, financially speaking. God has BLESSED us. But at no time did we sacrifice our children for the sake of having more comfort. IF it had come right down to it, I would have worked. I could have renewed my insurance license very easily. However, it didn't come to that, and I'm thankful. Part of the reason is because of the way we set up our lifestyle to MATCH Jeff's income. It wasn't just coincidence.

I am not saying it is WRONG for a woman to work or have a career. I have never said that, and don't believe it. I DO believe that a married woman has obligations to her home and husband, primarily, and a woman with small children has an obligation to care for them, primarily. Beyond that, I don't really care what she chooses to do.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by live4him

i am not saying woman are taking over , why dont you read it again, i am
saying that woman are not to be in control but if men wewre to pray like they should things would be different, i am not cutting down men and second of all we are not feminizing the church, you are taking it wrong, anyway, i am not here to argue, i am here to say that we have to stand behind our hubbys on their calling , and not step in their way

I didn't say you said women are taking over. I said the church is being feminized and that your comments fit into what is happening.

Here in the WD we have always had women's retreat. It's always been hyped. I never seen a WD men's retreat. I see a lot of services just for women but little for men. Women can pray. Men can't. There has been other articles and books on the phenomena. Many men think church is for sissys

[Mrs. LPW]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

It also has to do with women who do not see any need to be keepers at home, who have drank the "I must have a 'real' career" Kool-aid, and who think this scripture doesn't apply to them:


I Corinthians 7:34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

What Apostolic women in large numbers fail to comprehend is that caring for your home, pleasing your husband and caring for your children IS pleasing to God, and IS obedience to Him. You can pray for hours a day, but if you neglect your husband, children and home, you are not doing God's will.

Miss B,

I really appreciate these words.

There was a time in the not so distant past, that I was beating myself up over my lack of time to dedicate soley to prayer and "heavenly" things during the day.

During that time, feeling at my lowest in the measuring up catagory, a wonderful man of God prayed over me (in the second from the backseat of the church where I was sitting watching over my children while alter service was going on... a far cry from the middle-front of the church where we used to sit pre-babies.)

The preacher spoke directly from the Lord into my heart. Reminding me that right now my mission field was my home, right now my ministry was my family, right now the Lord understood that I couldn't pray hours like before or fast days as before.
What a wonderful refreshing it was just to hear from Him personally that night, that He knew where I was at, and was pleased with me.

Right now I'm blessed enough that I can be at home with my children, and this is where I want to be!!!

I apologize for the hijacking/tangent.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by live4him

i really think we should quit talking about the MAGIC HOLY HAIR because we could talk all day about why we dont cut our hair and we still cant convince you that the Bible says not to do that, it really is a waist of time if you all cant agrre in one accord

I have corrected you on this before. The issue of "magic hair" is NOT about why women should not cut their hair. It never was. There are very VERY conservative Apostolic UPC women that have taken issue with RR and the same doctrine LS was teaching. It's NOT about whether or not it's wrong for a woman to cut hair. You keep trying to make it about that but THAT was NEVER the issue.

I don't know what is wrong with some of you people. We have clearly pointed out the problem. That problem is NOT about the UPC teaching of uncut hair on women. This doctrine WE are discussing is NOT a UPC teaching. It's aberrant to the UPC but is gaining ground unfortunately.

I repeat again the issue is NOT about cutting hair. It never was,. Others like DA don't believe in the UPC doctrine of uncut hair but THIS issue we are discussing is not and was not ever about uncut hair BUT about the assertion that her uncut hair gives her power with angels and that some can even SUMMON angels by letting down their uncut hair. That God gives them special protections that men don't have and that in fact if she cuts her hair her family is in trouble. That is not biblical...not the uncut hair part...the part where she gets special powers. That is unbiblical. LS's exegesis of the passage does not hold water. It's flat out wrong.

This doctrine is even being supported by appealing to the occult claiming that even witches know about this little "secret" of uncut hair giving the woman power. Most witches are female btw. LS said this, not me. He appealed to the fact that Witches teach women's long uncut hair gives them certain protections.

That is a scary thought that we OPs are quoting witches to support our doctrines now.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW

Miss B,

I really appreciate these words.

There was a time in the not so distant past, that I was beating myself up over my lack of time to dedicate soley to prayer and "heavenly" things during the day.

During that time, feeling at my lowest in the measuring up catagory, a wonderful man of God prayed over me (in the second from the backseat of the church where I was sitting watching over my children while alter service was going on... a far cry from the middle-front of the church where we used to sit pre-babies.)

The preacher spoke directly from the Lord into my heart. Reminding me that right now my mission field was my home, right now my ministry was my family, right now the Lord understood that I couldn't pray hours like before or fast days as before.
What a wonderful refreshing it was just to hear from Him personally that night, that He knew where I was at, and was pleased with me.

Right now I'm blessed enough that I can be at home with my children, and this is where I want to be!!!

I apologize for the hijacking/tangent.

Good post.

My Dad used to say that "some people are so heavenly minded, they are no earthly good." In the Apostolic church, I fear that things have, in some cases, been over-spiritualized to the point that seeing to practical matters is seen as inferior, when in fact, it is vital and pleasing to God for us to take care of our families.

Another way that God has blessed ME is by giving me a husband who is not afraid to work and work HARD to make sure I can stay home with our children. Jeff does not come home and veg out in front of the TV all evening--he comes home from work, and after dinner, works another 3-4 hours on his web business, which is the other 50% of our now more than adequate income. When he was out of work, his good planning and careful maintenance of his home business is what saw us through some really hard times.

I do realize that not every woman is blessed with that kind of man. Some men put in their 8 hours (or maybe less), and then figure any shortage is for their spouse to contribute.

P.S. I do have to stand between my husband and workaholicism. LOL!!!! I am the voice of reason when Jeff crosses the line from good provider into Bull In A Financial China Closet.

[Mrs. LPW]

When I was a teen, my best friend and I would spend hours (literally) on the phone talking. Then, at the end of the conversation, we would be discussing something and one of us would say.. "now how did we get on that?"... and so the game of going back through our conversation, saying..."well, we got on this, because you mentioned this, and that reminded us of this... " we'd trail our way back to the begining of the phone conversation... just to see if we could remember everything.


It was fun then...

AFF threads remind me of those days.
Going from Jakes to Hair... it's not as fun anymore though HA.

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I didn't say you said women are taking over. I said the church is being feminized and that your comments fit into what is happening.

Here in the WD we have always had women's retreat. It's always been hyped. I never seen a WD men's retreat. I see a lot of services just for women but little for men. Women can pray. Men can't. There has been other articles and books on the phenomena. Many men think church is for sissys

you should hang out with some of the uc's, we have more mens fellowships then womens fellowships.