Remitted on the Cross or not?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Adino

Prax, I fully answered possible understandings to 1John 1:9 in post #160. In fact, because you didn't seem to want to accept those possibilities I began to 'interrogate' you concerning justification and forgiveness.

Adino, the problem was what the text says. I can't help that. I did not write it. It is what it is. Maybe this verse is speaking to unbelievers?

If it is not theologically possible for a believer to be simultaneously justified and unforgiven [for the record, I understand that it is not and I think you do too], then we are left with several options for understanding 1John 1:9....

1) that it teaches the theological impossibility that a man can be simultaneously justified and unforgiven [which I reject wholeheartedly]

or

2) that it references unbelievers who were not yet justified and had not yet experienced the forgiveness of the Cross [which would be best understood by taking certain 'seducing' controversial gnostic doctrines concerning sin into consideration as I pointed out earlier - this understanding would certainly fit the context]

or

3) that it does reference believers who were justified, but that it is not telling us justified believers become 'unforgiven' when they sin [rather that they simply 'experience' the historic forgiveness of the Cross each time they confess their sin and look to the historic work of the Cross in gratitude. The believer then proceeds having his purged 'conscience of sin' reemphasized (Hebrews 9:9; Hebrews 9:14; Hebrews 10:2) by continued faith in the finished work of the Cross (Acts 15:9). We thus, being in a constant state of justification, EXPERIENCE the forgiveness of the Cross multiple times throughout our journey, while NEVER becoming UNFORGIVEN at any moment.

Here is a problem I need explaining. If it's impossible then that means everyone is justified now not just forgiven. So we are not justified by faith?

unbelievers are justified too before faith? Justified and forgiven? Can a person be forgiven but NOT justified? IF so then justification and forgiveness are not related

Prax, I think you need to understand that while you defined a 'sinner' only as someone 'not repentant' you must recognize that from the moment a believer sins to the time he 'repents' he is indeed a sinner even by your definition.

NO again I gave MY definition. You are equating "repented" to "confessing sins"..I do not. A person who is repented is a person who if sorry for their sins, who even up on sinning realizes it's wrong and turns from it. One need not go through hoops and jumps to become repented.

A sinner is a person who keeps on sinning without any intent on turning from it or feeling sorry.

As an analogy a person who is a sinner is not even fighting the fight. A saved person is a person that loses a battle (sin) but continues to fight. He is repented. Repentant


As you said before, the believer does not immediately lose his justification when he sins, so we must view 1John 1:9 in light of this fact. Since you seem to agree that the believer remains justified at the moment he sins and that it is impossible to be simultaneously justified and unforgiven, we need to consider the other two scenarios above or offer another which remains consistent theologically.

Wouldn't you agree?[/quote]

I'd be inclined to agree but the grammar does not fit it

Maybe it refers to intentional willful sinning without being repentant?

[Praxeas]

Adino what exactly happens when we receive forgiveness? Is there a change in us? Is it a mere realization? Or are we relieved of the personal guilt?

[Praxeas]

Adino, would you agree with this?

In other words, once we are justified, our record contains Christ’s perfect righteousness and can never again contain our sins. Christians do sin, and these sins need to be forgiven if we are to have fellowship with God (1 John 1:5–7); but these sins are not held against us. God does keep a record of our works, so that He might reward us when Jesus comes; but He is not keeping a record of our sins.
Wiersbe, W. W. (1996). The Bible exposition commentary. Wheaton, Ill.: Victor Books.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Adino what exactly happens when we receive forgiveness? Is there a change in us? Is it a mere realization? Or are we relieved of the personal guilt?

What more can I say than I have said multiple times before? The answer is.... our heart is purified by faith (Acts 15:9)... our conscience of sin is purged (Hebrews 9:9,14; 10:2). We trust that our sin is no longer a cause of estrangement from God.

You before asked about a difference between the imputation of righteousness and 'receiving' (i.e., experiencing) forgiveness.

We 'receive' or 'experience' the forgiveness of the Cross when our conscience of sin is purged and our heart is purified by faith. The purging of our conscience of sin and/or the purifying of our heart by faith speaks of the way we view our sin before God. Do we still see our sin as a cause of estrangement from the Almighty or do we believe the cause of estrangement was forever removed on the Cross?

While receiving the forgiveness of the Cross speaks of the way we, through faith, view our sin as having been removed from before God, the imputation of Christ's righteousness speaks of the way God views us who believe. The former is a matter of viewing our condition from our perspective, the latter is a matter of viewing our condition from God's perspective. We who trust in the historic forgiveness of the Cross are seen by God as right standing. We who believe are justified by God. Those who do not believe remain in condemnation (John 3:18).

What happens when we receive forgiveness? Our heart comes to rest in the reality of the Cross.

Is there a change in us? We pass from unbelief to faith.

Is it a mere realization? No, it is a conversion to life (John 3:15-16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40; John 6:47; John 11:25,26).

Are we relieved of the personal guilt? We are relieved of the consequence of sin which is death. We, who were spiritually dead, were quickened to new life having been forgiven all our trespasses. We who were reconciled by his death, were saved by his life.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Adino, would you agree with this?

In other words, once we are justified, our record contains Christ’s perfect righteousness and can never again contain our sins. Christians do sin, and these sins need to be forgiven if we are to have fellowship with God (1 John 1:5–7); but these sins are not held against us. God does keep a record of our works, so that He might reward us when Jesus comes; but He is not keeping a record of our sins.
Wiersbe, W. W. (1996). The Bible exposition commentary. Wheaton, Ill.: Victor Books.

In other words, once we are justified, our record contains Christ’s perfect righteousness and can never again contain our sins.

Our sins imputed to Christ were forever taken away. They will never be held against us.

Christians do sin, and these sins need to be forgiven if we are to have fellowship with God (1 John 1:5–7);

These sins have already been forgiven else we have the issue of justified Christians becoming unforgiven. To have fellowship with God we need to continually look to the Cross in gratitude when we stumble. Again, any sin we commit has already been imputed to Christ.

but these sins are not held against us.

They have no bearing on our justification. They were imputed to Christ on the Cross nearly two thousand years ago. His work of remitting those sins is finished. We need only to come to terms with this historic reality.

God does keep a record of our works, so that He might reward us when Jesus comes;

The idea of 'rewarding us for our good deeds' might be more an issue of preparing us for particular service. I do not know what He has in store for us.

but He is not keeping a record of our sins.

Again, our sins were ALL imputed to Christ and remitted on the Cross.

ALL our sins past, present and future were imputed to Christ on the Cross. We are to continually look to the Cross in gratitude while God continually views us through the lens of Christ. We continue in a state of faith while God continues justifying us on the basis of the righteousness of Christ.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Adino

Our sins imputed to Christ were forever taken away. They will never be held against us.

These sins have already been forgiven else we have the issue of justified Christians becoming unforgiven. To have fellowship with God we need to continually look to the Cross in gratitude when we stumble. Again, any sin we commit has already been imputed to Christ.

They have no bearing on our justification. They were imputed to Christ on the Cross nearly two thousand years ago. His work of remitting those sins is finished. We need only to come to terms with this historic reality.

The idea of 'rewarding us for our good deeds' might be more an issue of preparing us for particular service. I do not know what He has in store for us.

Again, our sins were ALL imputed to Christ and remitted on the Cross.

ALL our sins past, present and future were imputed to Christ on the Cross. We are to continually look to the Cross in gratitude while God continually views us through the lens of Christ. We continue in a state of faith while God continues justifying us on the basis of the righteousness of Christ.

Adino you offered a lot of commentary but Im not sure if that is your way of simply saying "yes" that you agree...I didn't see any disagreement in the commentary.

I have another question, is there any need or reason why we should confess our sins to God or ask for forgiveness such as Jesus said in the Lord's prayer?

[Praxeas]

Adino are all sinners justified before faith? Does God justify everyone just as He forgives everyone?

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Adino you offered a lot of commentary but Im not sure if that is your way of simply saying "yes" that you agree...I didn't see any disagreement in the commentary.

I have another question, is there any need or reason why we should confess our sins to God or ask for forgiveness such as Jesus said in the Lord's prayer?

No, I do not fully agree with the commentary.

We need to recognize our shortfallings in order to continually progress forward. When we stumble we should acknowledge that we have stumbled and, like I said, look to the Cross in gratitude for having dealt with our sins.

Concerning the Lord's prayer: Do you want to be forgiven 'as you forgive others?' Not me..... I would hope God has much more mercy on me than I do on my peers.

I think it should be taken into consideration that the "Lord's Prayer" was given by Christ during his earthly ministry as he was teaching his disciples with certain aspects of the law in mind. Rather than hoping to receive forgiveness like the forgiveness I humanly tend to give, I'd opt to receive God's fathomless mercy and to forgive others as God has forgiven me (Ephesians 4:32).

Food for thought....

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Adino are all sinners justified before faith? Does God justify everyone just as He forgives everyone?

No, all sinners are not justified before faith, but they have been forgiven.

No, God justifies only those who believe. Those who do not believe are condemned. They are condemned, not for those sins imputed to Christ, but for having rejected the testimony God gave of His Son.

All men stand forgiven. Yet, all men are condemned until they accept the testimony God gave of His Son.

When man believes he is imputed the righteousness of Christ and justified.

All who are justified by faith have been forgiven, but not all forgiven at Calvary have come to faith in Christ for justification unto life.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Adino

No, all sinners are not justified before faith, but they have been forgiven.

No, God justifies only those who believe. Those who do not believe are condemned. They are condemned, not for those sins imputed to Christ, but for having rejected the testimony God gave of His Son.

All men stand forgiven. Yet, all men are condemned until they accept the testimony God gave of His Son.

When man believes he is imputed the righteousness of Christ and justified.

All who are justified by faith have been forgiven, but not all forgiven at Calvary have come to faith in Christ for justification unto life.

Is the sin of unbelief already forgiven? (I might have asked that already, please forgive me if I did)