Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Brother Adrian

I don't believe I've ever heard of Sister Freeman before. Is she affiliated with any Apostolic denomination?

Brother and Sister Freeman were UPCI missionaries to Africa for many years...

[Sister Alvear]

Sister Nona Freeman was a great woman of God and used in a mighty way...You would never find me saying one thing against her...

[Sister Alvear]

Judges 5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Then sang Deborah and Barak the son of Abinoam on that day, saying,

2 Praise ye the Lord for the avenging of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves.

3 Hear, O ye kings; give ear, O ye princes; I, even I, will sing unto the Lord; I will sing praise to the Lord God of Israel.

4 Lord, when thou wentest out of Seir, when thou marchedst out of the field of Edom, the earth trembled, and the heavens dropped, the clouds also dropped water.

5 The mountains melted from before the Lord, even that Sinai from before the Lord God of Israel.

6 In the days of Shamgar the son of Anath, in the days of Jael, the highways were unoccupied, and the travellers walked through byways.

7 The inhabitants of the villages ceased, they ceased in Israel, until that I Deborah arose, that I arose a mother in Israel.

8 They chose new gods; then was war in the gates: was there a shield or spear seen among forty thousand in Israel?

9 My heart is toward the governors of Israel, that offered themselves willingly among the people. Bless ye the Lord.

10 Speak, ye that ride on white asses, ye that sit in judgment, and walk by the way.

11 They that are delivered from the noise of archers in the places of drawing water, there shall they rehearse the righteous acts of the Lord, even the righteous acts toward the inhabitants of his villages in Israel: then shall the people of the Lord go down to the gates.

12 Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam.

13 Then he made him that remaineth have dominion over the nobles among the people: the Lord made me have dominion over the mighty.

14 Out of Ephraim was there a root of them against Amalek; after thee, Benjamin, among thy people; out of Machir came down governors, and out of Zebulun they that handle the pen of the writer.

15 And the princes of Issachar were with Deborah; even Issachar, and also Barak: he was sent on foot into the valley. For the divisions of Reuben there were great thoughts of heart.

16 Why abodest thou among the sheepfolds, to hear the bleatings of the flocks? For the divisions of Reuben there were great searchings of heart.

17 Gilead abode beyond Jordan: and why did Dan remain in ships? Asher continued on the sea shore, and abode in his breaches.

18 Zebulun and Naphtali were a people that jeoparded their lives unto the death in the high places of the field.

19 The kings came and fought, then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money.

20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.

21 The river of Kishon swept them away, that ancient river, the river Kishon. O my soul, thou hast trodden down strength.

22 Then were the horsehoofs broken by the means of the pransings, the pransings of their mighty ones.

23 Curse ye Meroz, said the angel of the Lord, curse ye bitterly the inhabitants thereof; because they came not to the help of the Lord, to the help of the Lord against the mighty.

24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.

25 He asked water, and she gave him milk; she brought forth butter in a lordly dish.

26 She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.

27 At her feet he bowed, he fell, he lay down: at her feet he bowed, he fell: where he bowed, there he fell down dead.

28 The mother of Sisera looked out at a window, and cried through the lattice, Why is his chariot so long in coming? why tarry the wheels of his chariots?

29 Her wise ladies answered her, yea, she returned answer to herself,

30 Have they not sped? have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two; to Sisera a prey of divers colours, a prey of divers colours of needlework, of divers colours of needlework on both sides, meet for the necks of them that take the spoil?

31 So let all thine enemies perish, O Lord: but let them that love him be as the sun when he goeth forth in his might. And the land had rest forty years.

King James Version (KJV)

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Sister Nona Freeman was a great woman of God and used in a mighty way...You would never find me saying one thing against her...

As are you, dear lady...

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by diakonos

We had the Buxton’s over for maybe a week. The wife was scheduled to teach. I purposely missed that one.

I was kinda shocked. My pastor was very anti women preacher. ����..♂️

I feel the same way. I would not have a woman pastor. If I knew a woman was scheduled to preach, I would stay home. If a woman preacher was randomly scheduled repeatedly by my pastor, I would probably find another church. I don’t say this because I’m militantly misogynistic, but because it feels wrong to me.

Originally Posted by Barb

So you wouldn't have listened to Sister Nona Freeman expound on the Word of God... ? Not being critical of your conviction, just asking...

I appreciate your wording of the issue as you did. Too often it is construed to be either male chauvinism, or misogyny, because men can’t have convictions. Right? Because everyone knows we’re animals, incapable of possessing attributes like integrity and principles!

Obviously I’m exaggerating here, to magnify the possibilities. I’m playing the devil’s (men’s) advocate. I realize women don’t really believe this across the board. I also realize Barb didn’t direct this to me, but I’m going to respond anyway.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

So, we are only saved if we are in the ministry?

It seems to me that it would be more appropriate to say that we are only in the ministry, if we are saved?

I believe that if we are saved we have a ministry. I think a lot of people are convinced that if they aren’t on the platform, they cannot minister. Sometimes people on the platform encourage that belief.
It is sometimes referred to as the pulpit/pew mentality.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Sister Nona Freeman was a great woman of God and used in a mighty way...You would never find me saying one thing against her...

Sister Alvear,

You have brought up several ladies that we share respect for. I want to respond to you because I know what you believe about women preachers. If you have read my posts, you know what I believe. Obviously our beliefs ON THIS SUBJECT are different. I hope you don’t read more into my posts than I am literally saying.

Sister Freeman, Sister Vesta Mangun, Sister A. O. Holmes, and some others have been brought up in this thread. I know these ladies mostly by reputation and perhaps I’ve heard them testify in a service here and there. I would also add you to this list as well as other ladies that I have been privileged to know over the years, some of which have passed on. What I’m getting to is this, I have great respect and appreciation for these ladies, yourself included. I find it offensive that it has been implied that you are perverted, I really do. If it bothers me, how much does it bother you?

Your husband?

Your children?

It just seems to be a recklessly unkind thing to say, even if you believe it to be true. Aaaand entirely disrespectful. I’m sorry that you saw that.

Having said all that to say this:

While I have respect for this list of ladies (and some others) it has occurred to me that I don’t respect them for the sermons that they preached to me. I don’t recall that ever happening. I respect and admire this group for who they are and what they have done. In your case specifically, I really appreciate what you are doing for the impoverished children, to give just one example. Some day I hope to help you in a meaningful way. If I do, I probably won’t hang around to hear you preach. I hope you understand. It has NOTHING to do with lack of respect for you. Believe me.

It DOES have to do with the fact that you have a natural ability to care, nurture, love, and teach children. Any man would be handicapped by his gender to do what you do, not only because of his natural limitations on his side (men are not naturally inclined to nurture to the extent women are) but also because they will be viewed through a different lens from the perspective of the children.

I’m going to continue this later, but I hope you see where I’m headed with this. Women have certain God given qualifications that help them to be better nurturers.

And then, on the other hand . . .

Cont.

[Tithesmeister]

Cont.

On the other hand, men have natural God given abilities. One thing about the ladies we’ve mentioned is that y’all are all outstanding ladies. All have made outstanding contributions to the work of the Lord. And you brought up Deborah and Jael. So I’d like to talk about Deborah and Jael. It’s less personal than Sister Alvear. And possibly I can make my point better by using them as examples.

Jael killed a man. Jael was a heroine of the Bible. She was an outstanding woman. Understand, that I am not trying to diminish what she did. But she was obviously an outlier. Let me explain.

David killed a giant that had all the Israelite army cowering and afraid. Saul (according to the Israelites) killed thousands, while David killed his ten thousands. Samson caught hundreds of foxes and set their tails on fire and turned them loose on the fields of his enemies. He uprooted the gates of the city and carried them away. He killed thousands of men with little more than his bare hands. I could go on for days telling about what the heroes of the faith did and the courage that they showed. Abraham, when he rescued Lot. Joshua leading men into battle. You see what l mean.

But Deborah was a prophetess and Jael killed a man. And they were honored, as they should be. But it was extraordinary. It wasn’t normal. And it was one man. It wasn’t thousands.

So, let’s shift gears. Let’s suppose that I am home with my wife and kids, everything is peaceful. We’re loving God, and people and enjoying the good life. Suddenly a gang of bad men invaded our home with extremely bad intentions. Maybe I send my wife and kids to the back while I deal with the problem. I either run them off, shoot and kill some or all of them, or possibly die trying. I would probably be respected for my efforts whether I lived or died. But it should be that I did what is expected of me. I protected or at least I did all I could do, to protect my family.

Now let’s consider the same scenario, only this time I cower in the back and send my wife or daughter to deal with the bad guys. Regardless of whether they send the guys packing or not, my name would be mud. And it should be. Because, as a man, it is my responsibility to protect my family, or at least die trying. It is expected of me. It’s my role. I’m not going to have books written about me for doing what I’m supposed to do. To hide behind my wife would be weak. I would be ashamed.

It’s really not that different from women preachers in my opinion. It is just not their place. It is not their role. It feels wrong for a man to be preached to by a woman. Preaching is a manly thing to do. So there are two levels of wrong involved.

1. It feels wrong.

2. It is scripturally wrong.

These are not necessarily separate issues.

Cont.

[Tithesmeister]

Cont.

Allow me to discuss the feelings aspect first. Several men have said that it feels wrong to have a woman preach to them. I have done so. But I am convinced that the women don’t understand. Y’all don’t get it. Y’all are thinking;

“What’s the big deal?”

Because, when a woman preaches to you it feels great! It’s the most wonderful thing ever! She touches your very soul! There is NO issue. So, y’all conclude that it is something weird about the race of men, and we have a hang up about women preachers, and we should just get over it. After all, everything feels so right about it (to y’all ).

Allow me to translate. The feelings that we men have are natural. On the other hand, the feelings you ladies have are natural as well.

There is a dichotomy, or divide in nature. It is natural that the whole world is divided (a dichotomy) of male and female. It is so pervasive that even the nouns in our language (especially the Spanish language) has feminine and masculine designations. Now there are outliers in nature, but we understand that outliers are not normal. This dichotomy is ordained (ordered) by God. (Male and female, created He them.)
This is why (in my opinion) it feels wrong for a man to be subjected to a woman’s preaching, and it feels fine for a woman to be blessed by a message from a lady preacher.

It feels wrong to a man to be preached to by a woman, because it is right (or natural for him to feel that something is wrong about it). It feels right to a woman to be preached to by a woman, because it IS right. It feels right to a woman to be preached to by a man, because it IS right.

It is natural. Aaaand it is scriptural. And the scripture is airtight, watertight and completely straightforward. If we are going to ignore the specific scripture concerning this topic, where does that lead us on the more murky subjects? It’s hard to imagine (or find) a more black and white doctrine than this one. Uncut hair and the Godhead are mysterious things indeed, by comparison!

In conclusion, my remedy to the situation is that half of the population of the world is female. Of the other half, some of the males are children. So let the lady preachers, preach . . .

To them!! That’s a pretty substantial mission field. Knock yourselves out!

I don’t mean ANY disrespect. Please believe me when I say this.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by diakonos

We had the Buxton’s over for maybe a week. The wife was scheduled to teach. I purposely missed that one.

I was kinda shocked. My pastor was very anti women preacher. ����..♂️

*Not sure which Buxton’s you’re referring to, but Elder Steve Buxton & his wife are very close friends of ours. I know for a fact that they do not believe in “women preachers” & would never allow one to “preach” for them.

*But, if ANY woman was scheduled to “preach” anywhere I was attending—I would do the same thing as you did. In fact, personally, I would not sit under anyone who used “women preachers” in the sense of the set-in office of the 5-fold ministry.

*And, of course, Sis. Alvear will come along w. her usual copy-paste jobs that have been demonstrably refuted ad nauseum ��(I personally know several pastors who will not support them for this very reason—I’m one of them).

*See here for more: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...omen+preachers

*Again, I am planning to begin my dissertation on this very topic in a month or so. Recent books put out by UPCI & others are unbelievably erroneous—esp. as it relates to their mishandling of Hebrew & Greek exegesis (& I mean to the extent of misparsing Greek verbs!). Mind boggling.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Barb

So you wouldn't have listened to Sister Nona Freeman expound on the Word of God... ? Not being critical of your conviction, just asking...

*No m’aam—I don’t care who it is, if a woman is “preaching” to men both her & the pastor who allowed it are in direct-flagrant rebellion & defiance to crystal-clear Scriptures. It couldn’t possibly be plainer in God’s Word.

*Not slamming you at all Barb (I have always actually enjoyed your contributions & demeanor). God bless.