Help! Tormented dreams

[votivesoul]

Aquila, I don't expect or demand that your change your understanding on any of this.

But, whether this matters one bit to you or not, I see something in this thread, that you have been doing over the course of several pages, since you and I first engaged each other.

You keep saying something along the lines of "Votive, you're usually not this irrational..."

Then you ask semi-rhetorical questions like "Where is this coming from?" and etc. You can do what you want with this, but what you are doing is a subtle, perhaps even for you, subconscious, form of mind control (You even attempted a demonstration of it with your "Red Ball" experiment, for all of us to see how it works).

I have told you two times why I am worked up about this stuff, but you haven't accepted my reasons. You push right past them as though you were on a mission to find out something that isn't there, to read between the lines of my posts, to get to the heart of something you wish was happening, but to no avail.

Look what has happened. Look how much new info has come to light by me challenging you.

First, you post a list of symptoms, claiming Matt Burris gave it to you. Then, you casually admit you didn't even know what something on that list was. Then you played it off like it was no big deal. Then you admit you haven't even looked at that list in some time. Now, most recently, you confess you don't even know where the list came from, it's just part of some file you have on your computer, a piece of collected data from who knows where.

Each time I bring this issue up, things get foggier and foggier. Had I not said a single word about it, how many people do you suppose, reading along or commenting, might have taken that list at face value, and accepted it as completely legit, all the way through, because, for instance, perhaps they trust you, or etc.?

Before I ever questioned you on anything, honestly say why you posted that list. What was your motivation? What did you hope you'd achieve?

Because as it comes across to me, there is more here than simply the sharing of information or ideas. All those initial posts you made, before I became to make inquiries, from where I'm sitting, were created in an attempt to convince Modest Mama you had the goods on what was going on and it was your counsel, above what anyone else had written, that was the counsel that was to be trusted.

Hey, I get it. You believe what you believe, so why not speak to that? I understand that. But you've stated more than once, especially early on, that deliverance ministers are supposed to be cautious and patient, and have to take the necessary amount of time, to confirm that an evil spirit is present and active.

You didn't go to every meeting. You weren't always around. There was only one possessed person. You had to walk away from the deliverance ministry because your own life was erupting. The list maybe didn't even come from them, you don't really know, etc. and etc.

But, we're supposed to trust your discernment in the Holy Spirit? Aquila, try to take a step back and see how all of these things smack of inexperience.

I have a blog. I've made somewhere around seventy entries. I've been blogging for about five years. I don't have a very big reader base. Some people here and people from facebook, some stragglers from around the web, and that's about it.

Ought I then to act as though I'm the Huffington Post and I know so much about blogging and how to make your blog stand out and get more readers, and draw in advertisers, and go full time so you can quit your day job and make money writing online, because I have a majorly small-time blog and I've read some articles online on how to blog and be successful at it?

Would I or should I pass myself off in such a manner? Isn't that the height of hubris and the depth of disingenuousness all wrapped up into one?

I realize we could continue trading posts, quid pro quo, and never really reach an agreement on anything in this thread. There might even be some benefit in doing so, whether for you, for me, for both of us, or for those who are reading along or continuing to participate.

But then again, maybe not. So as I said in my opening comments above, I don't expect or demand that you change your mind about what you believe. But I hope that you take some time and try to see it my way, and see whether or not the manner in which you posted in this most serious of threads was truly appropriate and motivated by a sincere and pure heart. Because if you ask me, it doesn't look that way.

Now, do you trust my discernment, Aquila, the way you asked Modest Mama to trust yours?

[Aquila]

Votive, we could have taken a look at the list together, as brothers, and fleshed out the same details. We could have also discussed symptoms of oppression in greater detail and perhaps shared experience and understanding. This, I think could have benefited readers. What happened was ugly. Instead of reasoning together, there was a combined and very focused personal attack. Even multiple distortions to discredit me, my faith, my sincerity, and my salvation. Frankly, you guys turned on me like a pack of wild dogs. The PMs I had with Mama were enlightening. More was going on than what she mentioned openly. And as the assault intensified, she vanished, confused and disheartened. I pray she finds the help she needs. Attacks dragging issues from multiple threads, personal attacks designed purposefully to slander and discredit. It was insane. I was beside myself. I'm stalked on multiple threads, and if I posted the PMs, you'd be shocked at what has been said to me. Honestly, I'm thinking twice before posting to anything of late. I know who will show up and that they will go deeply personal in their attacks. Then they will barrage me with hateful PMs. No Christian would say the kinds of things I've had PMed to me. You can feel the love of Christ when a brother is truly concerned. You also can tell when they know exactly what to say to cut you deep because you were foolish enough to be honest and transparent with them about past struggles. I'm truly disappointed. I don't know what I did. I know we can have disagreements, that happens, and that can be informative. But the level of vitriol, personal slander, and attack was unnatural and unwarranted.

I'll leave you with that. I do wish you the best. I'm going to turn my focus elsewhere for a while. No one in there right mind would want to continue this.

Maybe I'll catch you later sometime.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Votive, we could have taken a look at the list together, as brothers, and fleshed out the same details. We could have also discussed symptoms of oppression in greater detail and perhaps shared experience and understanding. This, I think could have benefited readers. What happened was ugly. Instead of reasoning together, there was a combined and very focused personal attack. Even multiple distortions to discredit me, my faith, my sincerity, and my salvation. Frankly, you guys turned on me like a pack of wild dogs. The PMs I had with Mama were enlightening. More was going on than what she mentioned openly. And as the assault intensified, she vanished, confused and disheartened. I pray she finds the help she needs. Attacks dragging issues from multiple threads, personal attacks designed purposefully to slander and discredit. It was insane. I was beside myself. I'm stalked on multiple threads, and if I posted the PMs, you'd be shocked at what has been said to me. No Christian would say those kinds of things. I'm truly disappointed. I don't know what I did. I know we can have disagreements, that happens, and that can be informative. But the level of vitriol and personal slander and attack was unnatural and unwarranted.

I'll leave you with that. See you when I see you. I do wish you the best. I'm going to turn my focus elsewhere for a while.

In an academic setting, where no one is personally involved, sure, I give that to you, we could all have had a much different conversation.

Had you, for instance, created a new thread saying something to the effect of "I have this list of possible symptoms of demonic oppression, would anyone care to discuss it with me?" I think we could have done exactly what you said above.

But that's a mere mental exercise that brings no harm upon anyone. This thread was different. This thread was created by a real person, vulnerable and in need of the best care and advice we as believers could give. And while you believe otherwise, what you offered her was not appropriate for the setting. If we were all together face to face, and a part of the same local assembly, and had intimate knowledge of each other as members of the same local body of believers, then yes, the setting would have been appropriate.

But that's not what we have here, is it? We are all of us miles and miles away from each other, in many ways, complete strangers to one another, with little to no available context to understand were each of us is coming from when we post what we post.

While this format allows for some very awesome things, it is highly weak and occasionally detrimental in other areas. As such, to suggest to a complete stranger that they are being demonized just isn't the way to go.

Imagine if someone posts a thread and says, "I'm thinking of leaving my wife" and then, in the thread gives some details about what's going on, and then, any of one of us, decides to tell that person "Go ahead, it's the right thing to do".

Is that okay? Should we be playing with someone's life like that? See, there's no consequences here. We post whatever we want to whomever we want, and then, don't have to experience the fallout.

Imagine if someone here convinces another poster that tithing is not a NT doctrine and ought to be abandoned, and that other poster stops tithing, and gets himself ex-communicated over it? Who here has to deal with that?

The answer is simple: No one.

Now, imagine Modest Mama now believes she is being demonized, because of your suggestion, and it's NOT TRUE?

Do you have to personally deal with the fall-out? Nope, not at all. No one here was posting that she wasn't being oppressed; rather, they were giving her encouragement and solutions to turn her situation around. None of that could have ever possibly lead her into deception.

But what you posted to her might very well do so, if you are WRONG. Brother, I am going to take that seriously all day long. Not just as an admin here, but as a believer.

So, if you feel attacked or discredited, understand that, to an extent, that comes with the territory, as a response to your lack of responsible posting.

Maybe you were right. Maybe your discernment in the Holy Spirit was spot on. But wagering on 50/50 odds that what you think you discerned is legit when someone else's spiritual wellbeing is on the line just isn't right. I don't care how you slice it.

If you were an elder or servant in the church she attends, that would be completely different. But you're not. You're just a stranger on an internet forum, and you overstepped your bounds. Everything I posted here was an attempt to re-establish those bounds. You took it personally. I'm sorry you did. But no one likes to be reproved or rebuffed, especially when they think they are in the right. But on this one, Aquila, you weren't. I don't mean ideologically or theologically. Those are academic concerns that can be discussed elsewhere at another time. I mean you were not in the right morally, to plant the idea into a complete stranger's spirit over the internet, that she's being demonized.

[houston]

I find it troubling that... never mind.
---
Well stated, Votive.

[ModestMama]

I am sorry i haven't responed lately. I really dont know what to say. I feel bad and want to apologize for causing a thorn between you Brothers. I also want to thank you all for your advice, prayers and concerns. It has been really helpful. Please know, that i do not think or feel i am possessed in any way.
Again thank you all!!!

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by ModestMama

I am sorry i haven't responed lately. I really dont know what to say. I feel bad and want to apologize for causing a thorn between you Brothers. I also want to thank you all for your advice, prayers and concerns. It has been really helpful. Please know, that i do not think or feel i am possessed in any way.
Again thank you all!!!

I don't feel there's a thorn between Aquila and me. Just some strong opinions that didn't mix well together. I appreciate the apology, but I don't think you did a single thing wrong in starting this thread, or in making any of the remarks or comments you made.

2 Thessalonians 3:16,

Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times in all ways.

[houston]

Originally Posted by ModestMama

I am sorry i haven't responed lately. I really dont know what to say. I feel bad and want to apologize for causing a thorn between you Brothers. I also want to thank you all for your advice, prayers and concerns. It has been really helpful. Please know, that i do not think or feel i am possessed in any way.
Again thank you all!!!

Do not apologize. You caused nothing. He needed and needs correction. Go in peace, daughter of Zion.

Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

I Peter 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you

Phil 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Psalm 29:11 The Lord will give strength unto his people; the Lord will bless his people with peace.

Psalm 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

Isa 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

Matt 11:28,29 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Rom 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

II Thes 3:16 Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all.


"Think on these things..."

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by ModestMama

I am sorry i haven't responed lately. I really dont know what to say. I feel bad and want to apologize for causing a thorn between you Brothers. I also want to thank you all for your advice, prayers and concerns. It has been really helpful. Please know, that i do not think or feel i am possessed in any way.
Again thank you all!!!

I agree with the brothers above. You did nothing wrong. We have strong opinions. And sometimes we have strong opinions about our opinions that can lead to misunderstanding. LOL That happens. But all is well. If you feel something is oppressing you, speak to your pastor and they will provide spiritual guidance that you know and can trust. Or you can see your doctor and see if the condition is medical. Just pray about it and follow the Spirit.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I agree with the brothers above. You did nothing wrong. We have strong opinions. And sometimes we have strong opinions about our opinions that can lead to misunderstanding. LOL That happens. But all is well. If you feel something is oppressing you, speak to your pastor and they will provide spiritual guidance that you know and can trust. Or you can see your doctor and see if the condition is medical. Just pray about it and follow the Spirit.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Votive, I want to formally say that I'm sorry if I offended you or misrepresented you in any misunderstanding of your motives.