1000 year reign

[Michael The Disciple]

You are presuming that because 1 Cor 15 is not speaking about people saved outside of Christ there are other people outside of Christ who will still resurrect. You might refer to the resurrection of damnation. But the context of 1 Cor 15 states that death (physical death is the context) is destroyed at the rapture. So there can be no more physical dying after the rapture. This means there is no further resurrection after another 1000 years, let alone no physical deaths after the rapture. And since the context is speaking about physical death, it only regards those who will experience victory over it, who can only be in Christ. There are no resurrections to eternal life aside from those who are in Christ.

No more death after the rapture? No more mortals after the rapture?

17: For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18: But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19: And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20: There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21: And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22: They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23: They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

Here in the New Earth we find people who can die at 100 years old or live as long as a tree.

So as you so strongly assert "if this is true then if what you say is true there must be contradictions in the Bible".

It obviously is not talking about the immortals (saints) who have been resurrected into their spiritual bodies.

No mortals in the New Earth?

22: For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23: And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24: And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Doctrine is made to build our faith. It needs to take all scripture into consideration. Not just a part of it.

[Pressing-On]

Yea, Michael! You found the quote button!

[Michael The Disciple]

Mfblume:

Our whole difference of opinion is based upon my proposition that the scriptures you refer to about our rulership over nations IS FULFILLED in the here and NOW. You are arguing in a circle now. You are saying that I am wrong about ruling now, because you are right about not ruling now and that we rule later. Instead of actually responding to my reference in Isa 25:8, you just say, "but but but what about something else?"

Yes our difference is you taking away a whole book of scriptures relevance to all Christians who lived for the last 19 centuries by teaching it is past. The approach that it is purely symbolic leaves us no common ground.

When Jesus spoke to the Church at Smyrna:

8: And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9: I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10: Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Rev.2:8-11

Did he see them as ruling over the city where they lived? If so why did he not tell them "you dont have to be cast into prison by the devil just reign over him".

Was the devil so spoiled and bound (in the bottomless pit) that he could not cast Saints into prison?

They were reigning in life in the sense they not the devil was controlling their destiny it seems to me.

How does RULING OVER NATIONS RIGHT NOW fit the Smyna Churches description?

Tribulation? Poverty? Cast into prison by devil?

A thousand times YES they were ruling in the midst of their enemies. But I find no scripture that says SAINTS RULE NATIONS till after the rapture. Seated with Christ WHILE HE RULES YES.

It does not seem the Smyrna Church lives up to YOUR DEFINITION of what Christians are. Yet JESUS found no fault in them. He simply encourages them to OVERCOME in their situation and they will receive a crown of life rather than die the second death.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Yea, Michael! You found the quote button!

Yes this dusty mind can learn something new after all!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

No one opposes that Jesus is the ruler over all things right now. He can and does make all things work together for good to his disciples. He uses us to pierce the dark powers of this world to bring salvation to souls.

Yet this doctrine is starting to sound closer to universalism. Jesus did not say the whole world would believe.

No, and neither did I. Do not put word sin our mouths, brother. Nothing I said implies anything similar to the whole world believing.

He is drawing souls out of the world and into HIS KINGDOM. His Kingdom is different from the worlds kingdoms.

Of course! That is why we read He rules in the midst of His enemies, in Psalm 110, while He sits at the right hand. And that rule CEASES when all enemies are put under his feet at the rapture.

Sister Alvear is implying Jesus is not ruling now, though, brother. And this is the dilemma that futurism is putting people into whether intended or not.

Jesus rules his Kingdom. He also intervenes and makes things happen according to his will. Our frustration with this doctrine is trying to see how it fits with a lot of scripture that shows things like only a FEW out of this world shall be saved.

The bible never said His rulership will cause many to be saved. We only read He rules in the midst of His enemies until all enemies are made his footstool. And the enemies are made his footstool when the rapture occurs, seeing death is the last enemy that is destroyed and done so at the rapture.

Jesus said from the beginning FEW would be saved. Not that we would go out and sweep nations of people into the Kingdom.

WHO SAID ANYTHING DIFFERENT? Where are you getting these ideas that you are challenging? I never proposed Jesus would sweep all nations into salvation. What is that?

Jesus is the one who gave prophecies that the Church would be hated by all nations and would be delivered to tribulation that if we endured to the end we would THEN BE SAVED.

And??? So what? Again, you speak as though I claim the church will win everyone and no one will be lost, when I never said anything about that.

9: Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10: And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11: And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12: And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matt. 24:9-13

I can see that as ruling in the midst of our enemies. But only if we define it that we are ruling in the ORDER OF GOD. As in OVERCOMING OUR ADVERSARIES THAT ARE TRYING TO MAKE US FALL. As in knowing Jesus personally and being led by his Spirit. Praying and seeing healings and miracles take place according to his will.

Sure! No problem there. But the fact remains this ruling is occurring now, and will cease at the rapture.

If thats how we can define RULING NOW I am with you. That however in no way should make void the fact there there is a greater reign to come.

I agree! but the greater reign is not over sinners, and is not in a millennium. It is in eternity future.

Most of the prophecies we read seem to show the Church with the short end of the stick as concerning things of THIS WORLD. That is until Jesus comes and then WE TAKE THE STICK.

We rule with Him now, though, brother. And the rapture takes us onto to bigger and better things for eternity.

25: But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26: And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Overcomers are promised if they OVERCOME to the END they will be given power to RULE THE NATIONS.

That END is not our future. I already stated Rev 1 through 19 is fulfilled. The end of an AGE occurred, as Matthew 24 states would occur.

The book of Revelation is treated as though its already came and gone. And yet the things that are SUPPOSEDLY FULFILLED find little reality in fact.

You take everything naturally, brother. that is your doctrine's problem. And when we show that such a natural interpretation conflicts wit plainly written statements in 1 Cor 15, for instance, you do not deal with those issues, but continue proposing we relegate Rev to the past. Answer our points, bro.

By taking an entire book out of the scriptures that was actually meant as an ENCOURAGEMENT TO BELIEVERS IN THE TIME OF DARKNESS!

Now that is nonsense. Bad form, brother. Revelation is so encouraging to us because we propose it shows we are kings and priests NOW. And if the church could pray down Rome's power in her darkest days of the first century, what else can we do in the same Name? We are the City NOW. We must flow forth the river of life and conquer all devils and spirits through revival.

Instead they are left scratching their heads and wondering how THIS CAN BE REIGNING OVER NATIONS that we are experiencing right here and now.

I keep telling us what it is and you simply reject it. What else can we do? You look for natural thrones and for Christ to continue ruling after the rapture, when the Bible says He ceases to rule then. And you do not address those points, ever. Maybe your next posts after this respond to them. Here's hoping!


Thanks again for your response.

[Michael The Disciple]

Mfblume:

Now that is nonsense. Bad form, brother. Revelation is so encouraging to us because we propose it shows we are kings and priests NOW. And if the church could pray down Rome's power in her darkest days of the first century, what else can we do in the same Name? We are the City NOW. We must flow forth the river of life and conquer all devils and spirits through revival.

Ok you dont think all people will be saved yet you think BEFORE THE RAPTURE we can conquer all devils through revival? If all devils can NOW be conquered why could not a mighty Apostle like Paul walk over top of satan when he hindered him twice from going to Thessalonica?

Why could not the Smyrna Christians tell the devil, "we rebuke you and you will not cast us into prison". Why did Jesus teach them instead be faithful even if you die and I will give you a crown of life".

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

No more death after the rapture? No more mortals after the rapture?

17: For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18: But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19: And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20: There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21: And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22: They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23: They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

Here in the New Earth we find people who can die at 100 years old or live as long as a tree.

That is speaking about the time before the rapture, and is not saying what you think it is saying. Otherwise, it conflicts with something you are still not dealing with, but hopefully will as I continue reading this and your latest post.

Isaiah is speaking about a time when babies will not die at young ages, but will continue and live fulls lives. It does not mean people will live for centuries again.

John Gill noted:

Isa 65:20 - There shall be no more thence an infant of days,.... That is, there shall no more be carried out from thence, from Jerusalem, or any other place where the church of God is, to the grave, in order to be interred, an infant that has lived but a few days, a very common thing now; but, in the latter day, such instances will be rare, or rather there will be none at all; every child born will live to the age of man, and not be cut off by any premature death, either by any natural disease, or by famine, or sword, or any other calamity, which will now have no place:

for the child shall die an hundred years old; not that that shall be reckoned a child that shall die at a hundred years of age (h), the life of man being now, in these days of the Messiah, as long as they were before the flood, as the Jewish interpreters imagine; but the child that is now born, or he that is now a child, shall live to the age of a hundred years, and not die before: but lest this outward happiness should be trusted to, and a man should imagine that therefore he is in a happy state for eternity, being blessed with such a long life, it follows, "but" or

though the sinner, being an hundred years old; shall be accursed; for though this shall be common in this state to good men and bad men, to live a hundred years, yet their death will not be alike; the good man will be blessed, and enter into a happy state of joy and peace; but the wicked man, though he lives as long as the other in this world, shall be accursed at death, and to all eternity; see Ecc_8:12.

for as the days of a tree are the days of my people; not as of a leaf which falls every year, but as of a tree, and as of such that last long, as oaks, cedars, and the like; though perhaps a tree bearing fruit fit to eat is meant; and the sense be, that the Lord's people should live as long as the trees planted by them, and so should eat the fruit thereof, and not leave them to others to partake of. The Targum, Septuagint, and Arabic versions, render it,

"as the days of the tree of life;''

which, some of the Rabbins say, were five hundred years. The allusion may be to the tree of life in paradise, and may be expressive of the long life of good men in this state; and as the tree of life was typical of Christ, who is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon him, it may denote that eternal life his people have by him.

These verses do not speak of a millennium. You are taking things far too naturally.

So as you so strongly assert "if this is true then if what you say is true there must be contradictions in the Bible".

None at all. Even Gill, who was NOT an ammillennialist, said that this speaks of the days of the Messiah.

Anyway, instead of responding to my points, which was the problem beforehand, you once again are raising other issues, saying, "but but but, what about this other thing?"

It obviously is not talking about the immortals (saints) who have been resurrected into their spiritual bodies.

I agree. And it is not speaking about the millennium either. See how vague your proof is? None of the verses you cite say anything about 1000 years after the church rapture.

The new heaven and new earth is speaking about a NEW COVENANT TIME.

Notice that GOD, not Mike Blume, referred to God calling a covenant people with words that are creative language. But He is not referring to creation, for creation occurred LONG BEFORE God called Himself a people to a COVENANT.

Isa 51:16 KJV And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

God termed the calling of a people as His own a time of laying the foundations of the earth and planting the heavens, although this was not naturally done at that time of the calling.

Again, John Gill witnesses with my proposition when he said this is poetic language describing the church age.

that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth; form and establish Gospel churches in the world, in the Roman empire, and elsewhere, both by the words and doctrines of the Gospel; by the ministry of the apostles, and other preachers of the word; and by the hand of almighty power, the efficacious grace of God attending the same: so the Septuagint, Syriac, and Arabic versions connect this clause with the former,

by which I have settled the heavens, &c; these are called "heavens", for their purity, brightness, and glory they have from the Lord; for the doctrines and ordinances of the Gospel, which are from heaven, and not of men; and for the true members of them, which

See. I am not making these things yup. I could never do that. I am taking explicit Old Testament examples of where heavens and earth are used to refer to COVENANTS.

that is also why we read in Hebrews:

Heb 1:10-11 KJV And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: (11) They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

And when we CONTINUE READING HEBREWS, we find the reference to COVENANTS in mind ion speaking of what waxes old.

Heb 8:13 KJV In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Y'all are not familiar with Hebraic manners of speech and sayings that are similar to our cultural sayings that ancient Hebrews would never be aware of, such as "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones."

Doctrine is made to build our faith. It needs to take all scripture into consideration. Not just a part of it.

EXACTLY, which is what I have been trying to show you in lieu of 1 Cor 15 which details I bring out you have NOT YET noted.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Michael The Disciple]

Mfblume said:

Now that is nonsense. Bad form, brother. Revelation is so encouraging to us because we propose it shows we are kings and priests NOW. And if the church could pray down Rome's power in her darkest days of the first century, what else can we do in the same Name? We are the City NOW. We must flow forth the river of life and conquer all devils and spirits through revival.

Where do you get the Church prayed down Romes power in the first century. What do you mean by that? Rome reigned over many nations for another 350 years after the 1st century. And until the time of Constantine put to death multitudes of Christians.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Ok you dont think all people will be saved yet you think BEFORE THE RAPTURE we can conquer all devils through revival?

Brother, think about what you are saying. It makes no sense. Conquering devils and appealing to the free will of lost souls to be saved are two different things.

If all devils can NOW be conquered why could not a mighty Apostle like Paul walk over top of satan when he hindered him twice from going to Thessalonica?

People are involved, brother. That is why. You can cast out devils but you cannot cast out flesh.

You need to realize the difference between victory over the devil, so you can cease demeaning the promis ethqat we can tread on serpents and scorpions, and also realize we are dealing with PEOPLE with free wills to reject Christ and be used of the devil.

For example, we can bind a devil operating with someone, but if that person being used refuses to accept Christ or acknolwedge Him in any way, and GIVES PLACES to the devil, that person will work against the church. Period. that has nothing to do with our lack of power in Christ. The soul will remain lost, but we can overcome the situations. Your view of victory is far too natural. This life is a VAPOUR! Victory is even seen in dying and going on to glory!

No one said this life is the ultimate. In fact I have said the opposite many times. You have are really natural box of thinking concerning rulership, brother.

[Sister Alvear]

however the END result comes out...I plan to be faithful...Faithfulness to God and His work is embedded in my heart. Somethings may be far beyond my poor ability to understand but I do understand be faithful.