Original Sin - Page 21

Esaias · #**201** 02-01-2015, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

The bible does not call is sin nature. It never uses those terms. It simply says SIN and the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. And using THOSE terms, SIN remains in our flesh until we die. And until then we can only override it.

Now, anyone care to respond to my claim that denial of original sin demands salvation by works?

Sin is transgression of the law of God. Are you saying Christians transgress God's law until death but go to heaven anyway?

Denial of original sin doctrine does not require salvation by works. However acceptance of original sin doctrine requires salvation as a matter of justice rather than grace, ie God OWES it to us to save us.

Original sin doctrine destroys grace. Grace us undeserved favor. Original sin says you are hell bound just for existing, for having a sin nature. What is there to be PARDONED?

Pardon is forgiveness of crimes. It is no crime to do what you cannot BUT do. But is sin is not an involuntary nature but a voluntary choice, then sin is crime (transgression) and DESERVES PUNISHMENT, and the sinner CAN be pardoned upon certain conditions (like the Atonement).

mfblume · #**202** 02-01-2015, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Sin is transgression of the law of God. Are you saying Christians transgress God's law until death but go to heaven anyway?

Sin is more than transgression of the law. It is a principle as well. There is the action of SIN and the FORCE Of SIN. As a force in us, sin causes us to commit sins.

When Paul wrote Romans, he used the term SIN as the force or pull within us. That must be where people get the idea of nature from. But to me it's not a nature but a force and a pull or push toward committing SINS.

Sin is like the factory and sins are like the bottles of liquor the factor produces.

Quote:

Denial of original sin doctrine does not require salvation by works. However acceptance of original sin doctrine requires salvation as a matter of justice rather than grace, ie God OWES it to us to save us.

Not true.

I wish someone would deal with my question. The bible says ADAM made us sinners without our actions. And by the same token Jesus makes us righteous saints. So, if Adam did not make us sinners, then Jesus did not make us righteous and we have to make ourselves righteous. And that is what they call salvation by works.

Quote:

Original sin doctrine destroys grace. Grace us undeserved favor. Original sin says you are hell bound just for existing, for having a sin nature. What is there to be PARDONED?

Again, I don't use SIN NATURE in my terminology. Original sin says ADAM made us sinners. HIS SIN fell on our heads as though we committed it. And the only alternative to believe that is to believe Adam did not make us sinners, but our own actions did. And if that be the case then Christ did not make us righteous and we have to attain that ourselves.

Quote:

Pardon is forgiveness of crimes. It is no crime to do what you cannot BUT do.

It's not a matter of pardon from what we cannot but do. It is pardon from the POSITION of BEING sinners. NOT DOING. It is an issue of BEING

Quote:

But is sin is not an involuntary nature but a voluntary choice, then sin is crime (transgression) and DESERVES PUNISHMENT, and the sinner CAN be pardoned upon certain conditions (like the Atonement).

Sin is more than a transgression, again. SIN is a force.

Esaias · #**203** 02-01-2015, 11:00 PM

http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbsindex.htm

Esaias · #**204** 02-01-2015, 11:02 PM

The bible gives an unambiguous clear definition of sin: sin is the transgression of the law. If one cannot accept the plain statement of the bible one cannot be helped.

mfblume · #**205** 02-01-2015, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbsindex.htm

Sorry, no time to read a booklet. Let's deal with it here if we can. Again, my issue is that if Adam did not make us sinners then Christ did not make us righteous.

Do you believe Christ made us righteous without our good works?

mfblume · #**206** 02-01-2015, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

The bible gives an unambiguous clear definition of sin: sin is the transgression of the law. If one cannot accept the plain statement of the bible one cannot be helped.

That's not true in ALL CASES if you read Romans 7. Yes, in some, but not here:

Watch:

Sin is seen as a FORCE:

Rom 7:8 KJV But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Rom 7:11 KJV For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Rom 7:14 KJV For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 7:16-17 KJV If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. (17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:20 KJV Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

In these instances it is not a transgression of the law.

mfblume · #**207** 02-01-2015, 11:10 PM

Peter said that Paul's words about righteousness are hard to be understood, and I think he primarily meant Romans 6-8.

SIN is a principle in Romans 7.

Same as in Romans 6:7. Until we follow context in these chapters, we'll miss the issue, I believe. Good luck. Hardly anyone touches the actual context of this part of the bible.

Esaias · #**208** 02-01-2015, 11:11 PM

"To interpret the phrase "made sinners" to mean that men are born sinners and become sinners involuntarily and necessarily by receiving a sinful nature from Adam, is a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage; for this passage not only says that all men are "made sinners" because of Adam's transgression, it also says that all men are "made sinners" because of Adam's transgression, it also says that all men are "made righteous" by the obedience of Christ, and that the free gift of life "came upon all men" by Christ Jesus. So, for the advocates of the doctrine of original sin to arbitrarily give to the phrases "made sinners" and "came upon all men" the meaning of physical force and physical necessity when these phrases refer to Adam's sin, without giving the same meaning to them when they they refer to Christ's righteousness, is once again an example of a forced and inconsistent interpretation dictated by a prepossessed belief in the doctrine of original sin."

mfblume · #**209** 02-01-2015, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

"To interpret the phrase "made sinners" to mean that men are born sinners and become sinners involuntarily and necessarily by receiving a sinful nature from Adam, is a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage; for this passage not only says that all men are "made sinners" because of Adam's transgression, it also says that all men are "made sinners" because of Adam's transgression, it also says that all men are "made righteous" by the obedience of Christ, and that the free gift of life "came upon all men" by Christ Jesus. So, for the advocates of the doctrine of original sin to arbitrarily give to the phrases "made sinners" and "came upon all men" the meaning of physical force and physical necessity when these phrases refer to Adam's sin, without giving the same meaning to them when they they refer to Christ's righteousness, is once again an example of a forced and inconsistent interpretation dictated by a prepossessed belief in the doctrine of original sin."

But who said it was a SIN NATURE? That's my issue. To say Adam made us sinners is not to necessarily say he gave us a sin nature. Again, it's position, not activity.

Christ made us righteous. Is that a position or activity?

Christ's work in making us righteous is the polar opposite, and actually more than opposite, to what Adam did according to Romans 5.

That is not reading anything into it. It is taking it from the writing. how can we read into the picture anything after reading what Adam did is outdone by what Christ did in making us righteous?

Lafon · #**210** 02-02-2015, 08:12 AM

The answer is found in understanding the "seed," a principle that God established in the beginning. All things would, including mankind, continue its presence by means of the "seed" that was present within itself.

When Adam sinned and God imposed the judgment of death upon his body, then this meant that the "seed" of all humanity became corrupt, and because the "seed" of all things God created is reproduced after its own kind, then we, as with all mankind born of Adam's "seed" have inherited Adam's propensity (call it "nature" if you will) to sin, as well as inherited the penalty of death by this same means.

Christ Jesus' progenitor was NOT the corrupted "seed" of Adam, rather that of the Spirit, therefore He did not inherit a "propensity" (aka, "nature") to sin, although because His fleshly body was formed in and came out of sinful flesh, then after this manner He, like all of humanity, inherited the penalty of death. This is why the Hebrews writer tells us that it "behoved" (that is, was necessary) for Him to be made like unto His brethren.

So bottom line ...... It is all in the "seed."