How many times did you ask God for the Holy Ghost?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

And sensible is a matter of opinion.

You are sure correct there. Nothing is black and white, huh?

[LadyRev]

All I know is this...

As a Catholic girl visiting a UPC church, I sought God to the best of my ability, prayed the best I knew how and I received the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in other tongues before I even understood what was happening to me. The understanding came AFTER the gift was received.

It was only my 3rd visit. The first visit, I was scared to death. I had never been in any church service even remotely close to this one. I did absolutely nothing but observe. The second service, I prayed some and knew I felt something I'd never felt before but I didn't move from my back pew. The 3rd service, I went to the altar and received the Holy Ghost in no time flat. Yes people were praying with me and talking to me but it was so LOUD in there that I couldn't hear a thing. I remember the VOLUME, I don't remember the instructions of those around me. I remember the experience, I don't remember it being complicated.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You are sure correct there. Nothing is black and white, huh?

If it was, we would cease from discovery, never learning new things.

A thought crossed my mind this last weekend. If a concept reaches the portal of being "Black or White", those in the concept will die from the doldrums of a windless sea.

I don't think it is even possible to obtain absolutes. God is the only One who is absolute; free from imperfection; complete; perfect. Life, which includes understanding God, is a puzzle with endless pieces of learning. An absolute means we’ve arrived at the final destination. There is no further realm or discovery.

Black and Whites may come to us in fleeting moments of passion, but time always puts them to the test where they are bent to fit. Those who accept this find life an invigorating experience, where change brings breath to a dying victim (Faith).

Religion is prison and this is why this Forum thrives by those who've put up their sails for new waters. They're tired of being anchored by absolutes that aren't absolute. They’re tired of living in the burden where ideas rot away in the concepts of yesterday. It's time for new lands, new horizons, and God has built within us a seeking that won’t settle for the stench of being stagnate by things that just don’t pan out.

Thank God for this, otherwise we will turn on one another because we are bored by something that doesn’t work anymore.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

I agree. But I'm not even sure he said it "hinged" nor that what he said was formulaic.

Acts 2:38-39

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

What was the promise he was speaking of here? And what did he say was required to receive that promise? The promise was the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Repentance and baptism were the things required to qualify for this promise.

EDIT: I'm not saying that if and only if you repent and are baptized then you will receive the Holy Ghost. This would clearly be untrue from the Cornelius example. But the bible says that if you do those two things (repentance and baptism) then you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (It doesn't say immediately though... So it might take years.).

[berkeley]

More than 20 times, really?? Wow, all I can say is ya'll must have been real deep in S-I-N...
sinny-sin-sin, as Bernie Mac put it!


(kidding)

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

There is no scripture that specifies a difference between Spirit baptism and Spirit indwelling. Show me where it is.

Who was it -- Jfrog, Jeffrey (cannot recall, apologies to the one who did not say it) -- who said that Acts 2 had BOTH indwelling and baptism happen at once, when I showed that disciples referred to Acts 2 and Acts 10 as reception, baptism, infilling, outpouring? That cannot be proved.

But Occam's Razor says they are one and the same experience if we research the issue, as I proposed on another thread about the same issue.

Occam's Razor also says that there is one type of tongues in Acts and that it is the same as the one in 1 Corinthians 12. Thus, Occam's Razor also says that not all speak in tongues as those in Acts did.

EDIT: Of course I'm sure you'll claim that what I am calling the simplest explanation isn't really the simplest... Of course that would only further prove that simplicity is subjective and that as long as simplicity is subjective then Occam's Razor is also subjective...

[Timmy]

Around here, Occam would have a beard.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

If it was, we would cease from discovery, never learning new things.

A thought crossed my mind this last weekend. If a concept reaches the portal of being "Black or White", those in the concept will die from the doldrums of a windless sea.

I don't think it is even possible to obtain absolutes. God is the only One who is absolute; free from imperfection; complete; perfect. Life, which includes understanding God, is a puzzle with endless pieces of learning. An absolute means we’ve arrived at the final destination. There is no further realm or discovery.

Black and Whites may come to us in fleeting moments of passion, but time always puts them to the test where they are bent to fit. Those who accept this find life an invigorating experience, where change brings breath to a dying victim (Faith).

Religion is prison and this is why this Forum thrives by those who've put up their sails for new waters. They're tired of being anchored by absolutes that aren't absolute. They’re tired of living in the burden where ideas rot away in the concepts of yesterday. It's time for new lands, new horizons, and God has built within us a seeking that won’t settle for the stench of being stagnate by things that just don’t pan out.

Thank God for this, otherwise we will turn on one another because we are bored by something that doesn’t work anymore.

Excellent thoughts! Very well written.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Acts 2:38-39

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

What was the promise he was speaking of here? And what did he say was required to receive that promise? The promise was the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Repentance and baptism were the things required to qualify for this promise.

EDIT: I'm not saying that if and only if you repent and are baptized then you will receive the Holy Ghost. This would clearly be untrue from the Cornelius example. But the bible says that if you do those two things (repentance and baptism) then you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (It doesn't say immediately though... So it might take years.).

Good question.

We know the "promise of the father" is the escatological baptism of the Spirit (Joel 2), but is it fair to question here if the promise here is one of salvation or at least a promise of restoration?

I'm not sure he stated certain things were "required," in fact that isn't found in the passage. It simply isn't set up that way. It says "repent, turn to God, be baptized, receive the Spirit, etc" (some translations say "and you will receive the Spirit). Interestingly enough, it would be nice here, if he added "which you will know you have if you've spoken in unearthly tongues" or something along those lines. Another thing is v41 says 3,000 were baptized, but says nothing about them receiving the Spirit or speaking in tongues. Makes you feel like Luke's pen was going quickly, excitedly telling the events of the first few years of the church.

So is Peter giving a formula for receiving the Spirit or is he declaring what is a reality to each believer? Is this a formulaic series of steps?

If we take Peter's words literally, it seems there is no begging, pleading or demanding. It says one WILL receive the Spirit, and in a literal sense, in a particular order (though I'm not sure the verse reads like that).

Act 2:4 says they were all filled with the Spirit AND began to speak in tongues as that same Spirit gave utterance. There are no exclusive claims here. In fact, vv5-13 tell us that the tongues used here were xenolalia, not glossalalia. The point of Acts 2 is signs and wonders and it's relationship eschatologically to the Jews. Paul builds on this significance in the Epistles. 2:21 is the summary. The Day of Salvation is now. What you are seeing and are not understanding is the promised Holy Spirit (this has HUGE eschatological significance). Luke also never associates this promise that has come to the church at this event in association with salvation. It seems it accompanies it. People are clearly being saved. But the signs and wonders, tongues and Spirit baptism are more indicators from Luke of the weighty significance that there has been a shifting in time. The Future is Now. He goes on story-after-story highlighting supernatural miracles -- and going out of his way to show the Jewish and Gentile church is one in the same.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Good question.

We know the "promise of the father" is the escatological baptism of the Spirit (Joel 2), but is it fair to question here if the promise here is one of salvation or at least a promise of restoration?

I'm not sure he stated certain things were "required," in fact that isn't found in the passage. It simply isn't set up that way. It says "repent, turn to God, be baptized, receive the Spirit, etc" (some translations say "and you will receive the Spirit).

Every translation has shall or will in it.

http://bible.cc/acts/2-38.htm

New International Version (©1984)
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

International Standard Version (©2008)
Peter answered them, "Every one of you must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Peter answered them, "All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

King James Bible
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

American King James Version
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

American Standard Version
And Peter'said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Bible in Basic English
And Peter said, Let your hearts be changed, every one of you, and have baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will have the Holy Spirit given to you.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Darby Bible Translation
And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Revised Version
And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Webster's Bible Translation
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Weymouth New Testament
"Repent," replied Peter, "and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, with a view to the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

World English Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Young's Literal Translation
and Peter said unto them, 'Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Interestingly enough, it would be nice here, if he added "which you will know you have if you've spoken in unearthly tongues" or something along those lines. Another thing is v41 says 3,000 were baptized, but says nothing about them receiving the Spirit or speaking in tongues. Makes you feel like Luke's pen was going quickly, excitedly telling the events of the first few years of the church.

He already added all that was needed to show the Holy Ghost was a promise. He added the word "shall or will".

EDIT: You know that I don't think tongues are a good indicator of someone having the salvational type of Holy Ghost. I'm not sure whether I think that a sign will accompany the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But as far as your point about the 3000, I think you stole that point from me :P

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

So is Peter giving a formula for receiving the Spirit or is he declaring what is a reality to each believer? Is this a formulaic series of steps?

It is a promise. Do this and that and this other thing will happen.

EDIT: It also never says the other thing won't happen if you don't do the other 2 things.

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

If we take Peter's words literally, it seems there is no begging, pleading or demanding. It says one WILL receive the Spirit, and in a literal sense, in a particular order (though I'm not sure the verse reads like that).

It doesn't say things will happen in any particular order. It says the Holy Spirit is promised if you do those other two things. I agree that there should be no pleading or begging or demanding.

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Act 2:4 says they were all filled with the Spirit AND began to speak in tongues as that same Spirit gave utterance. There are no exclusive claims here. In fact, vv5-13 tell us that the tongues used here were xenolalia, not glossalalia.

Acts 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

This is the same word translated as tongues pretty much everywhere else (It's also the same word as Acts 2:4). I think the greek is glossalalia. The account in Acts 2 is speaking of this.

EDIT: So it seems to me that the scriptural witness of gloassalia is that they are real human languages. (I think that was the point you were trying to make?)

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

The point of Acts 2 is signs and wonders and it's relationship eschatologically to the Jews. Paul builds on this significance in the Epistles. 2:21 is the summary. The Day of Salvation is now. What you are seeing and are not understanding is the promised Holy Spirit (this has HUGE eschatological significance). Luke also never associates this promise that has come to the church at this event in association with salvation. It seems it accompanies it. People are clearly being saved. But the signs and wonders, tongues and Spirit baptism are more indicators from Luke of the weighty significance that there has been a shifting in time. The Future is Now. He goes on story-after-story highlighting supernatural miracles -- and going out of his way to show the Jewish and Gentile church is one in the same.

I agree with this I think I'm not saying the Holy Ghost in Acts 2 is salvational. For all I know there may be two different kinds of Holy Ghost (a baptism and an infilling). What I am saying is that the Holy Ghost baptism as you call it was promised to all believers(the repented and baptized ones). Peter said repent and be baptized and you will or shall receive the Holy Ghost. I am also saying that all believers (the repented and baptized ones) will experience whatever Holy Ghost that Peter was speaking of in Acts 2:38. (It just so happens that I also believe that he was speaking of the Holy Ghost baptism in Acts 2:38.)