Gay Pastor's(xupc)recent Letter to the UPCI ! ! !

Originally Posted by mfblume

And the point is homosexuality is included and considered sexual sin.

Agreed.

[Charlie Brown]

Originally Posted by Chan

Let's look at his list.



There is nothing sinful about God's judgements/curses but I think I know where Brad is going with this line of questioning. He seemingly wants to say that homosexual attraction or "orientation" is not something he chose (and it's true that he did not choose to have that unnatural attraction but, instead, that it developed during childhood) and, therefore, it is not sinful (since sin is the choice to disobey God). Fine, let's give him that argument and respond this way: God created male and female and designed them so that mating would occur between male and female and not between males or between females. Homosexual attraction is an attraction that is contrary to God's created design for male and female. By embracing that attraction and trying to say the attraction is natural, normal, etc., one is rejecting God's created design, rejecting God's purpose for male and female (at least as that purpose applies to this particular individual). Such rejection of God's created design constitutes sin because it is, in effect, saying to God that "In this particular instance, what You created is not good and my homosexual attraction is good even though it isn't what you originally created."

If I could have posted this quote to "flash", I would have! Excellent post Chan!

Originally Posted by Rhoni

Brad,

You already know this but your mind and conscience has been seared...for us to post here to try to convince you otherwise is useless.

Only the truly repentant can be changed and saved. It doesn't matter what any of us think or feel...the word of God is the final say.

Living in sin will send one to hell. End of story.

Rhoni

I challenge (in a respectable tone of course) anyone who feels they have the authority to claim my conscience has been seared to come visit me and attend a church service with me at NLCCH. Look into the eyes of the gays and lesbians that attend our church as they lift their hands in worship and respond to the Holy Spirit that dwells in their hearts and then tell me our conscience has been seared.

Anyone who is willing to make such a bold and judgmental statement as you have ought to be ashamed of themselves. You are in no position to tell anyone that their conscience has been seared or to infer that they are going to hell. You stand in judgment against someone you've never met - I would hate to be in your shoes when judgment arrives at your doorstep.

Originally Posted by brad2723

I challenge (in a respectable tone of course) anyone who feels they have the authority to claim my conscience has been seared to come visit me and attend a church service with me at NLCCH. Look into the eyes of the gays and lesbians that attend our church as they lift their hands in worship and respond to the Holy Spirit that dwells in their hearts and then tell me our conscience has been seared.

Anyone who is willing to make such a bold and judgmental statement as you have ought to be ashamed of themselves. You are in no position to tell anyone that their conscience has been seared or to infer that they are going to hell. You stand in judgment against someone you've never met - I would hate to be in your shoes when judgment arrives at your doorstep.

Well, I can't say whether your conscience is seared or not and I am not particularly inclined to go around making such a judgment without further evidence. However, based on your chosen behavior (the choice to embrace and act on your homosexual attraction that is contrary to God's created design for male and female), I can state unequivocally that as long as you continue to embrace and act on your homosexual attraction you will not inherit the kingdom of God. This is not only because of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 but also because of Revelation 21:8, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Looking closely at the passage, I'd say every unrepentant sinner on the planet falls somewhere on that list.

Originally Posted by Chan

There is nothing sinful about God's judgements/curses but I think I know where Brad is going with this line of questioning. He seemingly wants to say that homosexual attraction or "orientation" is not something he chose (and it's true that he did not choose to have that unnatural attraction but, instead, that it developed during childhood) and, therefore, it is not sinful (since sin is the choice to disobey God). Fine, let's give him that argument and respond this way: God created male and female and designed them so that mating would occur between male and female and not between males or between females. Homosexual attraction is an attraction that is contrary to God's created design for male and female. By embracing that attraction and trying to say the attraction is natural, normal, etc., one is rejecting God's created design, rejecting God's purpose for male and female (at least as that purpose applies to this particular individual). Such rejection of God's created design constitutes sin because it is, in effect, saying to God that "In this particular instance, what You created is not good and my homosexual attraction is good even though it isn't what you originally created."

Of course, we must separate the unnatural homosexual attraction (which is unnatural because it is contrary to God's created design) from homosexual sin (defined as embracing and/or acting on the unnatural homosexual attraction). The attraction is something for God to heal. The sin is something to be repented of and forsaken.

I'm sure you are aware that I don't entirely agree with your argument, however, I want to thank you for at least reading my point of view with a desire to understand what I am saying. Your ability to comprehend my argument is appreciated.

I would like to point out that I have already conceded to the fact that homosexual relationships to do not reflect God's original creation. There is no argument there. What I believe, however, is that homosexuality is an mutation of God's original creation of man and woman just as intersexed and hermaphrodite individuals are mutations of God's original creation. As I have stated before; where there is no choice there is no moral culpability.

If a heterosexual man starts looking at pornography and begins to have desires to step away from his natural attraction to women in order to fulfill some sexual desire to experiment with homosexual sex then I would say this person is guilty of turning away from his natural attraction and is behaving in a way that goes against nature. This is clearly an individual who is choosing to turn away from his natural orientation. However, a homosexual (who I believe with all my heart is born homosexual) is not choosing to turn away from his natural orientation. S/he is simply responding to what they naturally are.

What would you (by you I mean anyone reading this post) do if in 10 years it was discovered that there is in fact a sexual orientation gene? How would the church reconcile their belief that sexual orientation is not natural and somehow a choice?

Even more thought provoking is this question. Do you believe you were born with your sexual orientation or do you believe it was learned?

Originally Posted by Chan

Well, I can't say whether your conscience is seared or not and I am not particularly inclined to go around making such a judgment without further evidence. However, based on your chosen behavior (the choice to embrace and act on your homosexual attraction that is contrary to God's created design for male and female), I can state unequivocally that as long as you continue to embrace and act on your homosexual attraction you will not inherit the kingdom of God. This is not only because of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 but also because of Revelation 21:8, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Looking closely at the passage, I'd say every unrepentant sinner on the planet falls somewhere on that list.

As I've stated before I personally am not acting on any homosexual attraction. I have not been in a physical relationship in many years. So, based on your theology am not at any greater risk of not inheriting the kingdom of God than you are.

According to Revelation 21:8, is anyone who is guilty of the abominations of the OT Law going to burn in the lake of fire?

Originally Posted by mfblume

That is the point. If it is a punishment, then it is not innocent in and of itself, and is sin.

You are saying, then, that since God has smote individuals with blindness, dumbness, and barrenness that those things are "not innocent" and are "sin?" Please clarify.

Originally Posted by brad2723

I'm sure you are aware that I don't entirely agree with your argument, however, I want to thank you for at least reading my point of view with a desire to understand what I am saying. Your ability to comprehend my argument is appreciated.

I've been on the other side of this issue.

I would like to point out that I have already conceded to the fact that homosexual relationships to do not reflect God's original creation. There is no argument there. What I believe, however, is that homosexuality is an mutation of God's original creation of man and woman just as intersexed and hermaphrodite individuals are mutations of God's original creation. As I have stated before; where there is no choice there is no moral culpability.

It is exactly that "mutation" (homosexual attraction and not homosexual relationships) that I was referring to when I said it was contrary to God's created design. It is because homosexual attraction is contrary to God's created design that the attraction is something that needs to be healed. Homosexual relationships, however, are entirely a choice because one chooses to enter into them. They are sin because the Bible tells us that homosexual behavior (which, by the way, includes what goes on in one's thoughts) is sin.

If a heterosexual man starts looking at pornography and begins to have desires to step away from his natural attraction to women in order to fulfill some sexual desire to experiment with homosexual sex then I would say this person is guilty of turning away from his natural attraction and is behaving in a way that goes against nature. This is clearly an individual who is choosing to turn away from his natural orientation. However, a homosexual (who I believe with all my heart is born homosexual) is not choosing to turn away from his natural orientation. S/he is simply responding to what they naturally are.

I would say that regardless of whether it's with another male or with a female it's still sin because it is sexual behavior occurring outside of opposite-sex marriage.

What would you (by you I mean anyone reading this post) do if in 10 years it was discovered that there is in fact a sexual orientation gene? How would the church reconcile their belief that sexual orientation is not natural and somehow a choice?

Whether there is a gene is not relevant, homosexual attraction is still contrary to God's created design for male and female and it is sin to embrace and act on that unnatural attraction.

Even more thought provoking is this question. Do you believe you were born with your sexual orientation or do you believe it was learned?

Sexual "orientation" (attraction) develops during childhood. No one is born sexually/romantically attracted to another.

Originally Posted by brad2723

As I've stated before I personally am not acting on any homosexual attraction. I have not been in a physical relationship in many years. So, based on your theology am not at any greater risk of not inheriting the kingdom of God than you are.

If you look with lust at another man, you are acting on your homosexual attraction.

According to Revelation 21:8, is anyone who is guilty of the abominations of the OT Law going to burn in the lake of fire?

That depends on the abominations. There are abominations that are "ceremonially unclean" and there are abominations that are "morally detestable." I would say that abominations that fall under the latter category fit in with Revelation 21:8. Of course, as I said before, I believe every unrepentant sinner on the planet falls into that passage somewhere.

[Charlie Brown]

I have read this discussion with interest. I would like to ask a question of you Brad.

My understanding is that you do not believe someone with homosexual desires (don't know a better way to put it) is not being sinful. It is when someone acts upon those desires, and engages in the sexual act with the same sex that they step over the line.

Is my understanding of your position correct?