...
For example, for Bro Joe to say "Well, I'm gonna wear my shorts to the church picnic anyway... just to prove a point"... or Sis. Sue to say "Well, I'm gonna wear my shiny gold rings up on the platform this morning anyway, just to prove a point" , to me is just not a good way to go about things.
I think the kind of slash-and-burn, confrontational approach some seem to be suggesting is counterproductive, unwise, and often just reeks of rebelliousness, which we all know is something God hates.
I really don't see that as "slash and burn..." - depending upon Joe's shorts and Sue's rings, of course. There are modest shorts and rings and then there things that will make cattle gag. The same as with just about everything else.
And I am glad to see that we do share a lot of common ground. I just don't see why "the other side" has gotten a free pass since the merger to do the kind of harm that they have and why it's always "wrong" to stand up to them.
CC, I love you, but I honestly think that this post highlights some of the problems between the "camps".
You say that Ron is a longtime poster who in that lengthy track record has established himself as a picture of moderation and reasonableness, how can you possibly override that long-built image with one opinion in one post about one thing?
Then to somehow take that one post as evidence that the UPC (which includes me) is backwards is troublesome to me. Why can't the lengthy personal relationship that you all shared that was full of "moderation and reasonableness" be much clearer evidence of where he is and where many in the organization are?
You skipped over that key word in my post. That key word was "many".
I abosutely beieve there are MANY UPC folks who are caught up in tradition and / or backwards in the sense of equating things like fog machines and lighting effects with evil and being wrong.
Same folks who I am told no longer exist but do and base ones walk with God by the adherence to their clothesline religion. Despite the denials I believe the vast majority of UPC folks DO judge others (and themsevles) salvation / walk with God by their adherence to an extra biblical dress code.
That is just the reality I see in my 49 years in or around the UPC.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
From my experience, those who "abandon traditions" and "don't love God" are usually burned out on religion entirely. They were forced to do things to win the love of those around them and told that they had to do the same things to win God's love as well. They end up with a "forget you!" attitude and sadly same the same thing to a God they probably never really came to know.
Those kids who "abandon traditions" but keep the love of God somehow found that they didn't need to win God's love - He offers love unconditionally. So they never really associated "the traditions" with the eternal Creator of all things. In other words, they found something eternal to replace the changing fads and traditions that they had been following.
How sad....I am thanking God right now for putting me in some wonderful churches, with great men of God, that did things right. It is amazing how different attitudes come out of different circumstances.
You skipped over that key word in my post. That key word was "many".
I abosutely beieve there are MANY UPC folks who are caught up in tradition and / or backwards in the sense of equating things like fog machines and lighting effects with evil and being wrong.
Same folks who I am told no longer exist but do and base ones walk with God by the adherence to their clothesline religion. Despite the denials I believe the vast majority of UPC folks DO judge others (and themsevles) salvation / walk with God by their adherence to an extra biblical dress code.
That is just the reality I see in my 49 years in or around the UPC.
CC, my point is though that you point to a proven history of you all walking in reason, moderation, and common ground, but seem to be willing to dismiss it all as just a figment of your imagination when you find one area where you don't agree. I'm not trying to attack you, but it just seems that on the grander scale, that is exactly what happens. We find a relatively insignificant area that we don't agree on and we allow it to cast a shadow on the greater relationship and the history of common ground and reason.
I just have seen the two of you discuss and agree about things that are much more significant in the grand scheme of things.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
Ron and I are fine. I have just been rather surprised to find him one of those who equates using technology with being "worldly" or evil. Others I would have expected it from.
I think old time Pentecost appeals to a certain mindset of folks and for that reason even if segments of OTP progress there will always be luddites who see the world in a certain, very small, way and will insure this extreme seperatism continues to live no matter how small the sect may be.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
Ron and I are fine. I have just been rather surprised to find him one of those who equates using technology with being "worldly" or evil. Others I would have expected it from.
I think old time Pentecost appeals to a certain mindset of folks and for that reason even if segments of OTP progress there will always be luddites who see the world in a certain, very small, way and will insure this extreme seperatism continues to live no matter how small the sect may be.
I don't think he is against all technology, there will always be slight differences in opinion and perspective. I just would not want a slight difference in one area to be translated as evidence that someone is backwards, particularly in light of a track record that suggests otherwise.
I know that you all are fine, I was just kind of talking in principle. You both are great people. I can only imagine how great of a person you would be if you would come to Houston and shockamoo with us sometime.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
I don't think he is against all technology, there will always be slight differences in opinion and perspective. I just would not want a slight difference in one area to be translated as evidence that someone is backwards, particularly in light of a track record that suggests otherwise.
I know that you all are fine, I was just kind of talking in principle. You both are great people. I can only imagine how great of a person you would be if you would come to Houston and shockamoo with us sometime.
LOL!!! There is a chance next summer I will be as close as Beaumont. Next weekend I will be in Austin.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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