Remitted on the Cross or not?

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by DAII

Nope, Adino aint OSAS . Sounds like Blessed Assurance.

Assurance is God is faithful. The question is are we going to be. John 15 is clear we have a responsibility to abide in him by keeping his commandments. Yes, God is true and faithful to his Word.... "IF"

[Adino]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Assurance is God is faithful. The question is are we going to be. John 15 is clear we have a responsibility to abide in him by keeping his commandments. Yes, God is true and faithful to his Word.... "IF"

And the commandment we are to keep in order to abide in him is that we believe on the name of His son Jesus Christ (1John 3:23).

IF you believe you abide in the vine.

What standard KEEPS you in the vine, Legalist? Has the standard changed throughout history with the ebb and flow of acceptable fashion? Does it change from culture to culture? Church to church?

Again, how do you KNOW you have lived up to the condition required to STAY in the vine?

Please, define your condition for continuing IN CHRIST.

Sinless perfection? If so, define it, please.

Must we sell all we have and give it to the poor to show we have not placed the god of materialism before the Almighty? Must we cease the perpetuation of ancient deities by mentioning the days of the week or certain months of the year (Exodus 23:13 - Moonday, Tewesday, Odensday, Thorsday, Friggsday, Saturnday, and last, but not least, the Mythric Sunday - lets also not forget the months Janus, Mars, Maia, Juno)? Must we turn our backs on a government which erects monuments of pagan gods? Do we sin when we perpetuate ancients pagan worship rituals and superstitions by blowing out candles on our birthday cakes, by dressing our boys in blue, by giving the babies rattles or by participating in the modern practices of holiday celebration steeped in paganry?

Have you helped out EVERY poor and/or destitute person you've encountered or heard about?

Is your position in Christ left up to subjective evaluation?

Please define your condition for abiding in Christ. I'm curious to see if it is the same for all legalists.

Thanks

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Let's get something clear here. Im not saying we are justified while being sinners...ie not repentant.

Just because someone that is saved commits a sin does not mean he instantly loses his salvation or is not justified

You do realize you just contradicted yourself in these two sentences, right?

If someone commits a sin, he is a sinner. If he does not instantly lose his justification, then he is at the same time just and a sinner (simul justus et peccator).

I agree a person can be simultaneously justified and a sinner. I do not agree a person can be simultaneously justified and unforgiven.

Since you have given all indication that you do believe a person can be simultaneously justified and unforgiven, please tell me how this can be theologically possible.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Judgment & Justification In Early Judaism And The Apostle Paul by Chris VanLandingham

The problem is you have a false understanding of justification and your view of the cross in relation to justification is flawed. I suggest you read the above book.

From what I've read, VanLandingham promotes the idea that Christ's death only atoned for preconversion sins. Do you agree with this? I certainly don't.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Adino

And the commandment we are to keep in order to abide in him is that we believe on the name of His son Jesus Christ (1John 3:23).

IF you believe you abide in the vine.

hmmm nice quote... Let me I think I do a better job LOL!

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. WAY TO IGNORE THAT PART!
1Jn 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

Seems to me this is the same commandment upon which all law hangs? Would that not be correct? I don't believe they are done away.

Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

What standard KEEPS you in the vine, Legalist? Has the standard changed throughout history with the ebb and flow of acceptable fashion? Does it change from culture to culture? Church to church?

What are you talking about? The practice of the above law goes into EVERY aspect of your life. That which defiles is of the heart. When you negate God will and purpose you lack love. You must turn back to him and do his will.
Which is the point that ALL will be judged by there works unto eternal life or damnation. Scripture is clear on this!

Again, how do you KNOW you have lived up to the condition required to STAY in the vine?

It's not MY job to judge it is CHrist who will judge whether youare faithful to the price needed to be paid. Whether your heart truly gave him what was required. JEsus clearly teaches these principles.

Please, define your condition for continuing IN CHRIST.

I already have and many times. The Law has always been based upon the samething. If you sin, you seek God. God knows your heart.

Sinless perfection? If so, define it, please.

Nope you seek him and you will be filled. Want to be righteous?

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.

the principle of living and dieing is the same it HASN'T CHANGED!

Eze 18:21 "But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
Eze 18:24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

We turn to Christ who has shown and commanded WHAT IS RIGHTEOUS.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

Seek him and do his will. Teach what you know and feel the Spirit and his Word has said is right. Seek him and his righteousness so you will also do it.

Must we sell all we have and give it to the poor to show we have not placed the god of materialism before the Almighty? Must we cease the perpetuation of ancient deities by mentioning the days of the week or certain months of the year (Exodus 23:13 - Moonday, Tewesday, Odensday, Thorsday, Friggsday, Saturnday, and last, but not least, the Mythric Sunday - lets also not forget the months Janus, Mars, Maia, Juno)? Must we turn our backs on a government which erects monuments of pagan gods? Do we sin when we perpetuate ancients pagan worship rituals and superstitions by blowing out candles on our birthday cakes, by dressing our boys in blue, by giving the babies rattles or by participating in the modern practices of holiday celebration steeped in paganry?

sounds like some decent principles to live by. Deny the ungodly there folly. Love them anyway despite it. Use God's ways and not the Worlds. Also because some pagan "made" something superstitious doesn't mean it is rooted in evil. You would not partake in something that would promote such that the pagan would be gratified and think of himself justified in his belief. Baby rattle in itself is a common sense play toy. because someone placed certain meaning to it doesn't mean you are defiled. SHould you engage in promoting such yes. meanings... your heart has turned and you need to repent and ask for forgiveness.

Have you helped out EVERY poor and/or destitute person you've encountered or heard about?

Give money all the time to people to help them out. I give what I can.

Is your position in Christ left up to subjective evaluation?

My position is Christ is based on the last judgment I will face when he looks at my life and either say well done or depart from me. God also judges whether I am at enmity with him or not NOW. If I am denying him I am not abiding in him. Just because I say I seek him doesn't mean I am right in everyway. I will be judged according to what I know and thus based upon the heart of HOW I REPONDED TO THE KNOWN. Creation judges us all but the more knowledge greater the responsibility.

Please define your condition for abiding in Christ. I'm curious to see if it is the same for all legalists.

I don't define it Jesus did. Anything I say is simply commentary and what I feel God has led me to believe. My judgment cannot judge anyone but it judges me though. I let things fall whee ever they may to the hearer. It is his law that will judge and how we responded.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Adino

From what I've read, VanLandingham promotes the idea that Christ's death only atoned for preconversion sins. Do you agree with this? I certainly don't.

That would be part of it yes. Do I believe he has forgiven my FUTURE sins yet? No! He has forgiven that which I asked and he forgave me. Thus the point of confessing per John... He is faithful TO forgive us if we confess. God does not force forgiveness that is against the basic principle of the text.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Adino

You do realize you just contradicted yourself in these two sentences, right?

If someone commits a sin, he is a sinner. If he does not instantly lose his justification, then he is at the same time just and a sinner (simul justus et peccator).

I agree a person can be simultaneously justified and a sinner. I do not agree a person can be simultaneously justified and unforgiven.

Since you have given all indication that you do believe a person can be simultaneously justified and unforgiven, please tell me how this can be theologically possible.

No I defined what I mean by "sinner". I said someone that is not repentant.

BTW Im trying to get to understand what you say and Ive asked some simple questions as to what this or that means, instead of answering you act like you are interrogating me. Help me here, Im trying to understand what YOU are saying and you are not helping me here.

You ask, about being justified and unforgiven. I don't know, that's what Im trying to find out. I asked you about this verse that says if we confess our sins, but I got an interrogation instead :-)

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

BTW, what do you think 1jn 1:9 teaches? Im just going by what it says, infact I didn't really assert anything rather I asked you about this..John does say "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us"...

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I think Im looking for something a little bit more meaty..besides "experience" what exactly HAPPENS to us when we "experience" forgiveness?

In other words though our record in heaven is clean even before we are saved, is there something that happens TO us personally upon receiving forgiveness?

Also how is that different than having Christ's righteousness imputed to us by faith?

Bump for Adino

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Judgment & Justification In Early Judaism And The Apostle Paul by Chris VanLandingham

The problem is you have a false understanding of justification and your view of the cross in relation to justification is flawed. I suggest you read the above book.

what is the right view of justification, according to this book?

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

No I defined what I mean by "sinner". I said someone that is not repentant.

BTW Im trying to get to understand what you say and Ive asked some simple questions as to what this or that means, instead of answering you act like you are interrogating me. Help me here, Im trying to understand what YOU are saying and you are not helping me here.

You ask, about being justified and unforgiven. I don't know, that's what Im trying to find out. I asked you about this verse that says if we confess our sins, but I got an interrogation instead :-)

Prax, I fully answered possible understandings to 1John 1:9 in post #160. In fact, because you didn't seem to want to accept those possibilities I began to 'interrogate' you concerning justification and forgiveness.

If it is not theologically possible for a believer to be simultaneously justified and unforgiven [for the record, I understand that it is not and I think you do too], then we are left with several options for understanding 1John 1:9....

1) that it teaches the theological impossibility that a man can be simultaneously justified and unforgiven [which I reject wholeheartedly]

or

2) that it references unbelievers who were not yet justified and had not yet experienced the forgiveness of the Cross [which would be best understood by taking certain 'seducing' controversial gnostic doctrines concerning sin into consideration as I pointed out earlier - this understanding would certainly fit the context]

or

3) that it does reference believers who were justified, but that it is not telling us justified believers become 'unforgiven' when they sin [rather that they simply 'experience' the historic forgiveness of the Cross each time they confess their sin and look to the historic work of the Cross in gratitude. The believer then proceeds having his purged 'conscience of sin' reemphasized (Hebrews 9:9; Hebrews 9:14; Hebrews 10:2) by continued faith in the finished work of the Cross (Acts 15:9). We thus, being in a constant state of justification, EXPERIENCE the forgiveness of the Cross multiple times throughout our journey, while NEVER becoming UNFORGIVEN at any moment.

Prax, I think you need to understand that while you defined a 'sinner' only as someone 'not repentant' you must recognize that from the moment a believer sins to the time he 'repents' he is indeed a sinner even by your definition. As you said before, the believer does not immediately lose his justification when he sins, so we must view 1John 1:9 in light of this fact. Since you seem to agree that the believer remains justified at the moment he sins and that it is impossible to be simultaneously justified and unforgiven, we need to consider the other two scenarios above or offer another which remains consistent theologically.

Wouldn't you agree?