The Persecution of Women in the Church

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Dora
Questions:

1. Are holiness standards preached as salvation/heaven or hell issues?

2. Are women who adhere more strictly to the "look" judged to be on a higher spiritual plane than those who conform less strictly?

3. Are women who just never seem to "measure up" demeaned from the pulpit or by other women? (of course these "holier" women are simply showing concern for the spiritual well-being of those who are less "holy").

4. Once a woman decides to attend another Apostolic-based church where the standard is less stringent, are they accused of going charismatic, or of having less love for Jesus Christ, or of being weak spiritually?

All I can say is, "GOOD GRIEF!"

Dora,

Your last sentence makes it sound like you're asking rheutorical questions.

I'm sure there are those who do those things and judge others just the way you say they do, but what does it matter? If this has happened to you, move on.

The Lord knows them that are his. Those who judge by outer appearance are not wise. Who's approval do you want?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Yes, but so are men. Again how is this relevant to the topic?

This argument is as trite and intellectually dishonest as a Caucasian trying to claim reverse racism in an honest discussion about the racist legislation and policy of the last few hundred years in America ....

or men claiming reverse sexism in human history and the Church when history and common sense dictate an imbalance has been present

or a Communist touting the virtues of communism of the last 100 years ....when in fact it has failed ....and has stripped humans of their dignity and freedom

[Coonskinner]

Dora, the problem is that the questions you posted don' have much of anything to do with "persecution."

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Dora, the problem is that the questions you posted don' have much of anything to do with "persecution."

If I was the person that Dora's questions were speaking of then I would have felt persecuted.

Matt 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Luke 6:2 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

Coincidentally, RC is 23 yrs old.

Who is RC?

[Felicity]

The Persecution of Women in the Church

The initial post of this thread is what caught my attention and why I decided to respond.

I would like to know how women are being "persecuted" in the church today as I know it, have lived it, have experienced it and have pastored it --- "it" referring to the church.

Because a woman has been told she can't wear red or a hair bow or jewelry or makeup ..... this is supposed to constitute "persecution"? What a laugh!!

I know women and men today who are being persecuted for their faith in real terms. They're thrown into jails and prisons, suffer beatings, repeated raping, starvation and even death because of their faith. This is what I think of when I think of "persecution". I certainly never considered my pastor teaching me that I shouldn't cut my hair or wear shorts or pants as "persecution". I wouldn't consider the fact that woman isn't accepted for "ordination" as persecution either.

The fact is ....... God has set certain things in order. One of those things is order in regards to headship, and it was God Himself who established in the very beginning that the order is ....

God

Man

Woman

I didn't set it up. Neither did Adam. God did. And the principles of headship and order are seen throughout scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

Does this mean that women can't lead? No. Because we see example in scripture of women leading but always under God and under man.

I have no problem overall with male authority. I prefer male leadership. Does every man lead perfectly? No. Are there men who take advantage? Definitely. Are there poor male role models and is there poor male leadership? Absolutely.

But this was God's plan from the beginning - male authority and headship. Just because men violate their role and take advantage doesn't negate God's commands or His plan. We need to stick with the principles that have been established in God's Word when it comes to this issue and all others too, of course.

And in my own personal experience overall, the male leadership I've had in my own life personally -- and in the church too -- has been positive, affirming, encouraging, assuring and as God mandated it to be.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by seguidordejesus

I like Felicity.

It seems that some on here don't...for some reason, it seems to be mostly women who don't

It seems sometimes like her experience has been one of two things, or both, or something else entirely :

1 - Utopian (or close)
OR
2 - She hasn't let the bad stuff get her down, or has gotten over it.

I sort of envy her if it's the first (but not quite) and admire her greatly if it's the second.

Makes me want to move back to the land of my ancestors (Canada) although the grass is seldom greener on the other side.

I kind of have a lot to say about this, but the thoughts won't form into words. I just wish that we could all concentrate on constructive things and not dwell on the past.

I love Felicity but think that she has her head buried in the sand. Her reality is not like the majority of those on this forum.

Maybe the reason why she has not had negative dealings with men is that she has a father and a husband that have taken their rightful place as men of God.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Felicity

The initial post of this thread is what caught my attention and why I decided to respond.

I would like to know how women are being "persecuted" in the church today as I know it, have lived it, have experienced it and have pastored it --- "it" referring to the church.

Because a woman has been told she can't wear red or a hair bow or jewelry or makeup ..... this is supposed to constitute "persecution"? What a laugh!!

I know women and men today who are being persecuted for their faith in real terms. They're thrown into jails and prisons, suffer beatings, repeated raping, starvation and even death because of their faith. This is what I think of when I think of "persecution". I certainly never considered my pastor teaching me that I shouldn't cut my hair or wear shorts or pants as "persecution". I wouldn't consider the fact that woman isn't accepted for "ordination" as persecution either.

The fact is ....... God has set certain things in order. One of those things is order in regards to headship, and it was God Himself who established in the very beginning that the order is ....

God

Man

Woman

I didn't set it up. Neither did Adam. God did. And the principles of headship and order are seen throughout scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

Does this mean that women can't lead? No. Because we see example in scripture of women leading but always under God and under man.

I have no problem overall with male authority. I prefer male leadership. Does every man lead perfectly? No. Are there men who take advantage? Definitely. Are there poor male role models and is there poor male leadership? Absolutely.

But this was God's plan from the beginning - male authority and headship. Just because men violate their role and take advantage doesn't negate God's commands or His plan. We need to stick with the principles that have been established in God's Word when it comes to this issue and all others too, of course.

And in my own personal experience overall, the male leadership I've had in my own life personally -- and in the church too -- has been positive, affirming, encouraging, assuring and as God mandated it to be.

Felicity,

Excellent post. We finally agree!

Love & Respect, Rhoni

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

Felicity,

Excellent post. We finally agree!

Love & Respect, Rhoni

I said nothing there I hadn't already said or meant, so you've agreed with me all along apparently and didn't know it. Glad you finally caught up.

I'm usually the slow one. Hehe.

Originally Posted by Dora

Who is "everyone else"????

It rains on the just and the unjust, the righteous and the unrighteous. UPC is not the only organization we're talking about here.

After watching the trials of the wacked out Mormon polygamist, and hearing of crazy traditions of the Amish and Mennonites marrying off young girls to much older men, the stuff I hear about Ultraconservative UPC pastors prohibiting their women from wearing red tights or hair bows is NUTHIN!

We've all had difficult times in our lives and challenges to overcome. Some of us are not bitter, just tired of certain people putting their heads in the sand and denying that a problem does actually exist.

But I can't see the problem ever being admitted much less addressed and resolved. I just don't see that happening in my lifetime...well maybe by the time I'm 90 years old they'll realize there really is no moral difference between tv and the internet.

Dora, this thread was addressing the persecution of women as a whole in the church. I didn't name any churches. All churches including those you mentioned have been biased against women, including the Islamic countries. Our women in Apostolic ranks have not experienced persecution to the extent of being thrown to the lions or being raped for their faith.
I think the individuals participating in this forum are forgetting the big picture. Thanks for bringing it back to focus. Im talking about the church as a whole. Any church could include all religions. Im not picking on any denomination or organization.
I wish people would stop trying to defend themselves and have real dialogue.