Bringing Protest & Disruption To Church:

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jito463

Here, I'll point it out to you. He said "FORCIBLY REMOVE", not SHOOT someone!

I didn't catch that. When it comes to protesters, I think ushers do well to remove someone, as long as security is in some fashion established in their job description (for lack of a better term). Otherwise, private citizen to private citizen, it would be best to call the police and have them removed by the authorities. If they resist, you can have them arrested.

On the flip side, if I were a pastor dealing with protesters, I'd call the gathering to a close, advise that congregation members not interact with protesters and simply go home. I'd then call the police.

Just my thoughts.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jito463

Did you even read what he posted?

I must have missed the full statement. lol Thanks for pointing it out though.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Aquila

He clearly said he appreciates that Putin is protecting young people from homosexual propaganda.

Questions: Why would Franklyn Graham praise Putin about this, if he doesn't also agree with the measures that Putin is taking against the homosexual community in Russia? Would Franklyn Graham praise Trump if he imposed the same or similar measures in the United States to "protect young people from homosexual propaganda"?

A - he was speaking regarding a law passed by the Russian parliament and signed by Putin in 2013.
Here is a link to an article
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...gay-propaganda
snippet
The law passed 436-0 on Tuesday, with just one deputy abstaining from voting on the bill, which bans the spreading of "propaganda of non-traditional sexual relations" among minors
The law in effect makes it illegal to equate straight and gay relationships, as well as the distribution of material on gay rights. It introduces fines for individuals and media groups found guilty of breaking the law, as well as special fines for foreigners.

It was a very specific response.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That's not judgment either. And I never condemned you whatsoever. You're not reading parts of what I am saying, likely because you're focusing on the negative parts of my post. Saying you are unwise in this issue is not condemning you

If I said, "You are unwise.", I'm judging you as being unwise. Hence the words, "You", "are", "unwise". It is a judgment about you as a person. Now, if I said, "Be cautious bro, you don't want to be unwise. Just take care that you are not sending the wrong message. I'll pray for Sarah.", that would be a brotherly admonition.

I fear that in our church culture, we've redefined things to the point that we don't see what we're actually doing. The end result is, we begin to do things we don't intend to do.

Clearly, you don't intend to judge me or for me to feel judged. However, to say the words, "You are unwise.", is a judgment.

If you claim you do not care what people think, then I am not talking about what you already know. I quoted bible that you seem to have not studied, is all.

I don't hang out with her and her partner or attend their church. I don't even see Sarah that often anymore. We were invited to their house recently because they are hosting a neighborhood Easter Egg Hunt where they live. So, if we go, that might be the next time I'll be seeing her. Many verses about light fellowshipping with darkness is speaking about "fellowship". It's not talking about sporadic occasional interaction.

My uncle John was married a few years ago. This is his third marriage. His first marriage, it ended because he cheated with a woman at his job, was physically abusive, and wiped the family out financially (drugs and alcohol). His second marriage, it ended because he had an affair and even though they tried counseling, it didn't work out. His third marriage "appears" to be doing well... so far. I don't have much faith that it will last forever, but stranger things have happened.

Let me tell you a little about my uncle's role in my life. My mom and dad divorced after my brother's death, when I was only two years old. My uncle (my mother's brother) was like a dad to me. A father figure. Fishing, camping, car shows, motorcycle rides, movies, concerts, and baseball games. He also pulled me aside for "man to man" talks as I got older. In many ways, he was more of a dad to me than my own father.

I attended every one of my uncle's weddings even though the last two of them were biblically "adulterous" weddings. And nobody said a word. I've been to several other weddings, not all of them were "holy matrimony" ("holy" being the operative word). And, again, nobody said a word. However, I attend Sarah's wedding, and everyone loses their minds.

Look, I'd not be the "Best Man" at a gay wedding. I wouldn't officiate a gay wedding. I'd not give a toast. Nor would I help decorate for it. I was just another face in the crowd. Very few eyes were on me.

I think you're going really overboard on this.

How can you know it if you neglect it? How are you not neglecting it?

Just because I see it differently than you do, doesn't mean that I'm neglecting it.

As I said above, I'd not be the "Best Man" at a gay wedding. I wouldn't officiate a gay wedding. I'd not give a toast. Nor would I help decorate for it. I wouldn't do these things for my uncle's weddings either. At both of these weddings I was just another face in the crowd.

And I wasn't the only person there with personal convictions about the wedding. Sarah's brother-in-law was there. He quietly whispered to me, "I just don't get it. Why are so many women choosing to marry other women? I just don't think it is natural." We talked quietly for a little bit. I explained that I didn't think it was natural either, and I shared with him that I believed in the Bible. Apparently he believes in the Bible too, he's a Baptist. We both agreed that it wasn't the way God designed us. We also agreed on Sarah being a very special girl, someone who deserves to be happy, someone who is a part of our family.

I don't think you get it. If it was a friend from work, I'd definitely not go. If it were a friend from Facebook, or an old high school friend, I'd decline. But Sarah is "family". You're judging and meddling in a family matter.

Like I said, don't get me wrong, I think your heart is right in this. My opinion based on those scriptures I presented, though, is you weren't wise on that decision.

I can respect that the above is your opinion. But, I'd like to say, I think you're overacting a little. I think you're assuming some things about me that aren't true. For example, I wouldn't attend a gay wedding of a friend or work associate. But this is Sarah, she's family.

Now, here's some drama that took place at the wedding. Sarah pleaded with her dad about coming. She wanted him to walk her down the isle. Keep in mind, he's never fully accepted that his daughter is a lesbian. After a long talk with Sarah, apparently he said he'd be there. He backed out at the last minute. Sarah was shattered and humiliated. It is very important to many girls to have their father walk them down the isle. Guess what... that sinful uncle of mine who often drinks too much and just can't manage to keep his marriages together... he had the heart and the guts to jump in. He explained that her dad wasn't going to make it, and that he was stepping in to give her away on her special day.

Look, I'm not saying it is right. But this is a broken world filled with broken people. People like Sarah who has had some pretty big challenges in her life, even before going to college. Her mother abandoned her and her dad. She went to prison for 6 years because she lied to protect her high school boyfriend. She got out of prison and her dunk abusive father drove her from his home. She came out of the closet and her father virtually disowned her. Half the family has treated her like a pariah after her coming out. Her own father stood her up at her wedding, after it seemed they had made headway on mending their relationship.

I accept broken people. It doesn't mean I don't note that something is wrong. It doesn't mean that I don't pray for broken people who are all too often caught up in broken circumstances.

I really think you're a bit over the top on this.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

A - he was speaking regarding a law passed by the Russian parliament and signed by Putin in 2013.
Here is a link to an article
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...gay-propaganda
snippet
The law passed 436-0 on Tuesday, with just one deputy abstaining from voting on the bill, which bans the spreading of "propaganda of non-traditional sexual relations" among minors
The law in effect makes it illegal to equate straight and gay relationships, as well as the distribution of material on gay rights. It introduces fines for individuals and media groups found guilty of breaking the law, as well as special fines for foreigners.

It was a very specific response.

I think you need to look more closely at the details:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/op...crackdown.html

https://mic.com/articles/58649/russi...ish#.7tZIgC7iT

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3581217.html

I'm not defending the gay agenda, I think it's too radical. But Putin's gay laws are fascist. Although Putin's targets are people we might disagree with religiously, Putin's law is both discriminatory and a violation of human rights. Did you know that the way the law is written, the mere accusation of being gay, or engaging in gay "propaganda", or even holding hands, could land you in jail? Dude, even if one doesn't agree with the orientation, certainly any level headed advocate of human liberty can see this isn't right.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Only churches preaching hate and fascism.

Who defines "hate" and "fascism?" You? Stating support for a candidate isn't preaching "hate" or "fascism." A Pastor making a claim that he believes Trump is King Darius resurrected may be misguided, but it's not "preaching hate and fascism."

Originally Posted by Aquila

Let's stay on topic. Radical pastor who are using the pulpit to advance an extreme right wing (and I'll even include left wing) agenda need to be shouted down, protested, and exposed as political hacks in their communities.

I was on topic. In this thread and others, you have openly stated your desire for protests and violence against who should be your brothers and sisters in Christ. Fellow apostolics and Pentecostals, you have deemed your enemy. That's what it comes down to. You can use words like "radical" and "extreme right wing" to attempt to make your posts more palatable, but what you're advocating is protests and violence against innocent people.

It's sickening. Meanwhile, you defend murderers and homosexuals. Something isn't right.

Originally Posted by Aquila

If a pastor can preach politics, surely he has what it takes to endure political protest and opposition.

So you don't believe in free speech or freedom of religion anymore? Pastors don't make policy. You're directing your angst at the wrong people.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Protest against against political extremism is a part of love. Remember, Quakers protested and spoke out in condemnation of slavery and religious authorities that supported and preached for it in meetings.

Not what you're advocating. Love has nothing to do with this. You're throwing a tantrum. You're whining because your candidate didn't win.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I wouldn't storm the platform. I think that would be going too far. But standing up in the middle of the congregation and drowning out some pro-fascist message or hateful speech is as far as I'd go. Picketing outside the building is acceptable in my opinion. Blocking driveways, eh, that's boarder line to me. Personally, I'd allow people to go too and fro freely.

Again, 1) you're directing your tantrum at the wrong people. Go protest at your Senator's or Representative's office. Go camp outside the WH. Find out where Trump is giving a speech and go disrupt that. 2) who decides what is a "pro-fascist message or hateful speech?" Do you believe preaching against gay marriage is fascist or hateful? You're trying to set a dangerous precedent.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Oh, I have no doubt that in some gun-toting, NRA adoring, right wing churches someone would stand and shoot an unarmed protestor. But at one time, those fighting for labor rights had to decide to face possible death and retaliation too. Some did end up dying. I mean, they want to drop millions and leave them without health insurance. Maybe if enough protesters die along with sick people, the Republicans will wake up.

Are you kidding me, man? Your liberalism and politics have corrupted your spirit. You really "have no doubt some gun-toting, NRA adoring, right wing church [member]...would stand and shoot an unarmed protestor?" Seriously? Something is wrong in your head and spirit if you really believe this. And let's be clear who's advocating violence against innocent church members - you.

Originally Posted by Aquila

All I'm saying is that if a pastor preaches hate, extreme right wing politics (or extreme left wing politics), someone needs to start flipping tables and busting open cages and baskets.

Or here's a novel idea - don't go to those churches. It's a free country, right? We have free speech and freedom of religion. You don't like what the Pastor is preaching --- DON'T ATTEND THAT CHURCH! Instead of trying to incite a riot and push for protests and violence against innocent people, follow Jesus' sermon on the mount:

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Originally Posted by Aquila

They need to get back to preaching JESUS. Maybe the protest should simply be against politics in the pulpit. Protest politics regardless as to if it is on the right or the left. We need to get these men who wish they were talk radio hosts to realize that their call is to preach Jesus... not Trump, not even Obama.

Since when did you become the sermon police? Who died and made you a god to judge Pastors and their sermons? You were complaining about being judged in another thread, yet here you are judging and condemning yourself. At least there was scripture to back up the judgment against you. You have not one scripture to support your call for riots and violence against innocent believers.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Those who use their position to advance extreme political agendas must be held responsible for their madness.

It goes both ways, you know. Who holds you accountable and responsible for your extreme political agenda and madness, hoping for riots and violence in churches?

Originally Posted by Aquila

What would happen if those "shock-jock" preachers knew there was a wave of righteously indignant followers of Jesus more than willing to just GO OFF if the preacher glorified this world's system, the greedy, the wealthy, the warmongers, and extortionists, and the abortionists, and the traitors in Washington???

What would happen if you followed Jesus' sermon on the mount, stopped making liberalism your religion, just focused on Jesus and left these "shock-jock preachers" to answer to God for whatever sin you think they've committed?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If I said, "You are unwise.", I'm judging you as being unwise. Hence the words, "You", "are", "unwise". It is a judgment about you as a person. Now, if I said, "Be cautious bro, you don't want to be unwise. Just take care that you are not sending the wrong message. I'll pray for Sarah.", that would be a brotherly admonition.

Judgment is condemnatioon and I did not condemn you.

Look, I'd not be the "Best Man" at a gay wedding. I wouldn't officiate a gay wedding. I'd not give a toast. Nor would I help decorate for it. I was just another face in the crowd. Very few eyes were on me.

I think you're going really overboard on this.

No, the bible said to be concerned over what people see us do. Like I said, if you know those verses you could not have studied them. There is no other way to understand them.
Please demonstrate how your actions do not violate those passages using those passages to show what they actually mean if you are right.

I can respect that the above is your opinion. But, I'd like to say, I think you're overacting a little. I think you're assuming some things about me that aren't true. For example, I wouldn't attend a gay wedding of a friend or work associate. But this is Sarah, she's family.

Sorry, if it was my own son I would not go.

Bible forbids me to.

Look, I'm not saying it is right. But this is a broken world filled with broken people. People like Sarah who has had some pretty big challenges in her life,

I know what you are trying to say but it does not condone attending a celebration of a gay weeding.

I really think you're a bit over the top on this.

I disagree.

Believe what you want! You have that freedom!

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by n david

Who defines "hate" and "fascism?" You? Stating support for a candidate isn't preaching "hate" or "fascism." A Pastor making a claim that he believes Trump is King Darius resurrected may be misguided, but it's not "preaching hate and fascism."


I was on topic. In this thread and others, you have openly stated your desire for protests and violence against who should be your brothers and sisters in Christ. Fellow apostolics and Pentecostals, you have deemed your enemy. That's what it comes down to. You can use words like "radical" and "extreme right wing" to attempt to make your posts more palatable, but what you're advocating is protests and violence against innocent people.

It's sickening. Meanwhile, you defend murderers and homosexuals. Something isn't right.


So you don't believe in free speech or freedom of religion anymore? Pastors don't make policy. You're directing your angst at the wrong people.



Not what you're advocating. Love has nothing to do with this. You're throwing a tantrum. You're whining because your candidate didn't win.



Again, 1) you're directing your tantrum at the wrong people. Go protest at your Senator's or Representative's office. Go camp outside the WH. Find out where Trump is giving a speech and go disrupt that. 2) who decides what is a "pro-fascist message or hateful speech?" Do you believe preaching against gay marriage is fascist or hateful? You're trying to set a dangerous precedent.



Are you kidding me, man? Your liberalism and politics have corrupted your spirit. You really "have no doubt some gun-toting, NRA adoring, right wing church [member]...would stand and shoot an unarmed protestor?" Seriously? Something is wrong in your head and spirit if you really believe this. And let's be clear who's advocating violence against innocent church members - you.



Or here's a novel idea - don't go to those churches. It's a free country, right? We have free speech and freedom of religion. You don't like what the Pastor is preaching --- DON'T ATTEND THAT CHURCH! Instead of trying to incite a riot and push for protests and violence against innocent people, follow Jesus' sermon on the mount:

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.



Since when did you become the sermon police? Who died and made you a god to judge Pastors and their sermons? You were complaining about being judged in another thread, yet here you are judging and condemning yourself. At least there was scripture to back up the judgment against you. You have not one scripture to support your call for riots and violence against innocent believers.



It goes both ways, you know. Who holds you accountable and responsible for your extreme political agenda and madness, hoping for riots and violence in churches?


What would happen if you followed Jesus' sermon on the mount, stopped making liberalism your religion, just focused on Jesus and left these "shock-jock preachers" to answer to God for whatever sin you think they've committed?

Aquila, nDavid is speaking truth to you in this post, there is something wrong in your spirit

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

A - and yet you do the same thing.
Here you drop the "nugget" about Franklin Graham showering praise on Putin.
A while back I posted the exchange between FG and the Russian journalist and he did not shower praise on him.
But, here you go again:
Journalist - I heard that you called Barack Obama ‘the leader of the antichrist movement.’ Is that true? What do you think about the current president of the United States?

FG - I have met the president on several occasions. He’s a very nice person. But he supports and promotes policies that contradict the teachings of God. As a Christian I believe that abortion is murder, he supports it. Homosexuality and same-sex marriage — those are sins against God, and the president is promoting them. I’m not against homosexuals as people. But God commanded that marriage should be between a man and a woman. And I very much appreciate that President Putin is protecting Russian young people against homosexual propaganda. If only to give them the opportunity to grow up and make a decision for themselves. Again, homosexuals cannot have children, they can take other people’s children. I believe that President Obama (and I’ll repeat, he’s a very nice person) is leading America down the wrong road. He’s taking a stand against God.

So, you ignore the context, in favor of your viewpoint.

A - you stated that FG praised Putin. I provided the quote. Now you want to go down the rabbit trail of condemning all of Putin's anti-gay measures. That is not what FG said he appreciated.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Who defines "hate" and "fascism?" You? Stating support for a candidate isn't preaching "hate" or "fascism." A Pastor making a claim that he believes Trump is King Darius resurrected may be misguided, but it's not "preaching hate and fascism."

Hate is like pornography. I believe it was an attorney who once said that while he couldn't define pornography in legal terms (because nudity can be art, naturalist expression, etc.) he simply knows it when he sees it. Hate is something one knows when one hears it. Preaching that a candidate is King Darius or the Messiah isn't hate. Saying that an entire group of people aren't good for anything but firewood... that is hate. Even the Bible itself would condemn such a statement.

I was on topic. In this thread and others, you have openly stated your desire for protests and violence against who should be your brothers and sisters in Christ. Fellow apostolics and Pentecostals, you have deemed your enemy. That's what it comes down to. You can use words like "radical" and "extreme right wing" to attempt to make your posts more palatable, but what you're advocating is protests and violence against innocent people.

I didn't "advocate" violence. Can you provide me a quote and give me opportunity to clarify? The only thing I do remember saying is that I can see where someone might "snap", especially if someone they love looses much needed healthcare coverage. However, I also stated that such an individual should be brought to justice.

Now, do I advocate "protest"? Sure. Frankly, it is a Constitutional right to protest with regards to a grievance. And if the grievance involves a social message of hate and fascism, certainly it should be protested. A pastor advocating for a fascist policy is no different than an Imam advocating for Sharia. Both are antithetical to a free society.

It's sickening. Meanwhile, you defend murderers and homosexuals. Something isn't right.

Any protester who kills someone in a fit of rage, I don't defend. They should be brought to justice. Homosexuals are just gay people. You say it like they are infected with a deadly virus that can spread and that they need to be eradicated or something. But the truth is, I'm not defending homosexuals. I'M DEFENDING EVERYONE'S RIGHT TO A PRIVATE LIFE AND THE RIGHT TO MARRY AND LOVE WHOMEVER THEY WISH. (Caps for emphasis.) It's more about being a free society than it is protecting a specific group. It isn't the GOVERNMENT'S business to tell us who we can marry, love, or even have sex with. Those are PRIVATE issues. Now, if we are endangering someone else's life, liberty, or property... then yes, it is the government's business.

So you don't believe in free speech or freedom of religion anymore? Pastors don't make policy. You're directing your angst at the wrong people.

Yes, I do. However, there is a difference between religion and religio-political ideology. For example, radical Islam is married to an ideology that would violently impose Sharia law on every human being on earth. That is a dangerous religion. They hide under the cloak of being a "religion". Likewise, the extreme right-wing churches I'm talking about advocate for unconstitutional fascist policies and the denial of basic human rights to people based on private religious convictions. There really is no difference. Both are unconstitutional, both would impose a private conviction on others predicated upon a personal religious belief.

And while you're right, pastors don't make policy.... they preach and shape the minds of others, and that affects society at large. I feel anyone with the platform to politic privately to people who are spiritually beholden to them need to be held responsible for what the say and teach.

Besides, churches get upwards of over $71 billion in religious tax exemptions every year. If they want to preach politics, let them chose not to be exempt. But if they wish to preach politics, I think they should pay their taxes. They are effecting society, let them contribute.

Not what you're advocating. Love has nothing to do with this. You're throwing a tantrum. You're whining because your candidate didn't win.

It's only an opinion that I'm throwing a tantrum, and you're entitled to your opinion. I'm just saying that perhaps enough bluster and blowhard from pulpits is enough. If a pastor advocates for some extremism, right or left, why shouldn't a society, or community, not hold them accountable?

Again, 1) you're directing your tantrum at the wrong people. Go protest at your Senator's or Representative's office. Go camp outside the WH. Find out where Trump is giving a speech and go disrupt that. 2) who decides what is a "pro-fascist message or hateful speech?" Do you believe preaching against gay marriage is fascist or hateful? You're trying to set a dangerous precedent.

It is a proven fact that the majority of white evangelicals voted for Donald Trump. It is also a fact that many pastors, evangelists, television evangelists, Christian radio personalities, etc. pushed for Trump. And when a group of people is beholden to the spiritual leadership of such people, for what they believe to be their very salvation in some cases, they will do as they are told. I've been there. I attended a church that caused me much duress during several elections because I knew the facts, yet the church was pushing for a candidate who wasn't in the general public's best interests. I remember the anxiety. I wanted to vote for the guy who actually supported policies important to me and my family. However, because of a pastor's obsessive desire to control gay people and to see abortion prohibited, I felt like I was betraying Jesus if I voted for the candidate who truly reflected what was in my family's best interests. I'm certain that pastors on both the right and the left leave many, maybe even a couple million, feeling this way every election cycle.

Yes, protesting before Representatives to address specific legislation can be effective. However, is becoming more apparent to more and more people and sociologists that the actual "engines" behind ultra-conservative or ultra-liberal ideology and agendas are.... the churches.

So, the idea was rather simple. If pastors want to preach politics, why not take political protest to the churches? It's only logical.

TO BE CONTINUED....