Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongues

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

KBTW made the point that tongues was not salvational, but only repentance and baptism where.

You need to rephrase your statement. I am not saying that... the BIBLE is saying that! I have shared scripture after scripture where faith/repentance/baptism were all linked to salvation. Not ONE scripture can link speaking in tongues to the salvation experience. Not one. Just to clarify that.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

What I was really getting at, is that everything is salvational. We don't hang our salvation off of any isolated event or experience. I don't like to use the term salvational, but instead I would rather use the term Biblical. It will be Christ who delivers our soul from hell and it is Him that determines what is salvational. It should be our desire to obey His word and to seek everything that God has for us.

Many people's whole relationship with God is built upon the premise that they are not going to hell. As if that is the only thing that is important. Of course our eternity is important, but a relationship is not one sided. We enter a relationship with Christ, and we serve Him because of who he is and because He first loved us. Even if there wasn't an eternity we would still serve Him.

I may just be rambling on, but it seems like so many want to know the bare minimum. What is salvational? is their only interest. Jesus must be both Lord and Savior of our lives. I think the question itself reveals the hearts of so many. Thank God for the gospel and the command given in Acts 2:38, but we must continue on in our journey with God.

And I do agree that salvation is an experience... it has a beginning and an ending... it is a journey of a lifetime. But to get started on that journey, one has to take the first step... and that first step starts with faith/repentance/baptism... and after that the Lord is able to gift and empower with His spirit to enable us to continue the journey of salvation until the last day of our life, when that journey ends.

I agree that we can't just focus on only what is salvational. But... for the sinner coming to the Lord, that is where he is at, and that first step has to be taken... and after that first step... the Lord is able to empower him with the HG to continue to walk through this life, being saved day by day.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

But yet... when you connect the dots, the end result is always the same... if you need to have the HG to be saved, and to have the HG you need to talk in tongues, why then, short and simply - what you believe is that you have to speak in tongues to be saved. You dance around the issue, not really saying that tongues is your measuring stick, but it really is. And it should not be. Because there is not ONE scripture in the NT that equates tongues to salvation.
.

You really can't see what you're doing there, with the bolded part, can you?

Fascinating.

[covey]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

See my answer below from an earlier post in this thread:


Because there is not ONE scripture in the NT that equates tongues to salvation.

But plenty of scriptures that simply state repentance/faith/baptism are all essential to salvation or being saved, which I've listed in previous posts.

John 3:8 equates being born of the Spirit is integral to our salvation. The issue is not that you need to speak in tongues to be saved. the issue is: you will speak in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance when you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The best Scriptural evidence of this being true comes from Jesus - John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

The key to this verse is what Jesus tells Nicodemus will happen when someone is born of the Spirit. The keyword is "SOUND": "even though we cannot see the wind, we hear the sound of its presence". The same thing will happen when someone (EVERYONE) is born of the Spirit "you will not see the Spirit, but you will hear the SOUND of the presence of Spirit. According to the book of Acts, the sound that we hear when anyone is baptized with the Holy Spirit is "speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance".

The reason "SOUND" is the keyword is this: The Greek word in this verse is defined one way for the sound of inanimate objects and another for an animate object. The animate object of the verses is "man". The sound that everyone born of the Spirit comes from the tongue / speech. This fact leaves no doubt as to what Jesus meant "Every one born of the Spirit will speak in tongues as the "Spirit" gives the utterance".

The Greek word in John 3:8 is "phōnē". It is defined as follows:

1) a sound, a tone
A) of inanimate things, as musical instruments
2) a voice
A) of the sound of uttered words
3) speech
A) of a language, tongue

As you can see, the sound lets us know the Spirit is present in EVERYONE who is born of the Spirit, is the sound that comes from the tongue / speech.

It is true, EVERYONE who is born (baptized with) of the Spirit will hear the sound of the presence of the holy Spirit by speaking in tongues as the SPIRIT gives the utterance.

[JamesGlen]

KBTW, It looks to me like, although I may stand corrected, that your belief is in direct contradiction with Jn 7:39's "Spirit being not yet given", because you say it was given.
And also Heb. 6's foundational doctorine of baptismS, because not only water baptism, but Spirit baptism is a foundational doctrine.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by covey

John 3:8 equates being born of the Spirit is integral to our salvation. The issue is not that you need to speak in tongues to be saved. the issue is: you will speak in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance when you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The best Scriptural evidence of this being true comes from Jesus - John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

The key to this verse is what Jesus tells Nicodemus will happen when someone is born of the Spirit. The keyword is "SOUND": "even though we cannot see the wind, we hear the sound of its presence". The same thing will happen when someone (EVERYONE) is born of the Spirit "you will not see the Spirit, but you will hear the SOUND of the presence of Spirit. According to the book of Acts, the sound that we hear when anyone is baptized with the Holy Spirit is "speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance".

The reason "SOUND" is the keyword is this: The Greek word in this verse is defined one way for the sound of inanimate objects and another for an animate object. The animate object of the verses is "man". The sound that everyone born of the Spirit comes from the tongue / speech. This fact leaves no doubt as to what Jesus meant "Every one born of the Spirit will speak in tongues as the "Spirit" gives the utterance".

The Greek word in John 3:8 is "phōnē". It is defined as follows:

1) a sound, a tone
A) of inanimate things, as musical instruments
2) a voice
A) of the sound of uttered words
3) speech
A) of a language, tongue

As you can see, the sound lets us know the Spirit is present in EVERYONE who is born of the Spirit, is the sound that comes from the tongue / speech.

It is true, EVERYONE who is born (baptized with) of the Spirit will hear the sound of the presence of the holy Spirit by speaking in tongues as the SPIRIT gives the utterance.

Hello Covey, thank you for joining the discussion. I have addressed this "sound" discussion earlier in the thread, but I know it is cumbersome to read through all of it.

Just to clarify and make sure we are both on the same page, you might want to read John 3 again just to refresh your memory. John 3 has the famous verse in it, remember this one?

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus is talking about believing all through this chapter. He that believeth will not be condemned.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Nowhere in John 3 did Jesus mention anything about speaking in tongues. One must "hop around" to try to make the “sound” concept work.

What Jesus did mention, time and time again in this chapter, was believing. And we can find many scriptures to parallel believing with salvation, and being born again. In fact, the Apostle Paul himself was baptized, and born again, saved, without any record of him speaking in tongues.

Now, don't leave here thinking that I don't believe in speaking in tongues, because I do.

The concept I am coming against, is the one of trying to build a case that salvation cannot happen or begin until one speaks in tongues, with nary a scripture to support that. In contrast, many, many scriptures state salvation begins with believing/repentance/baptism.

Here's a few... there's many more...

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

And John here in this scripture also equates believing with the spirit:

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

So from all indications in this chapter, and with the weight of NT scriptures, we are told that the spirit is present upon believing, and once one has believed, and been baptized, the Lord is then able to gift and pour out the full measure of His spirit into that heart, most often noted with the sign of speaking in tongues.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

KBTW, It looks to me like, although I may stand corrected, that your belief is in direct contradiction with Jn 7:39's "Spirit being not yet given", because you say it was given.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The full pouring out of the spirit cannot come until after a sinner believes/repents, but that sinner cannot repent on his own efforts. The spirit of the Lord is present, drawing him, and moving in Him. But upon his obedience in repentance and baptism, then yes, the Lord is able to fully pour out His spirit.

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

And also Heb. 6's foundational doctorine of baptismS, because not only water baptism, but Spirit baptism is a foundational doctrine.

Most certainly there are two baptisms, with water and with spirit, no argument there!

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Just to clarify and make sure we are both on the same page, you might want to read John 3 again just to refresh your memory. John 3 has the famous verse in it, remember this one?

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus is talking about believing all through this chapter. He that believeth will not be condemned.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Nowhere in John 3 did Jesus mention anything about speaking in tongues. One must "hop around" to try to make the “sound” concept work.

The problem with your use of that verse, is that it also doesn't mention baptism or repentance. Would you then say those are optional or not a requirement for salvation? You're defeating your own argument.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Jito463

The problem with your use of that verse, is that it also doesn't mention baptism or repentance. Would you then say those are optional or not a requirement for salvation? You're defeating your own argument.

Baptism and repentance are mentioned in various ways, many, many times throughout the NT... not just one isolated mention of it.

Believing/repentance/baptism are mentioned multiple times in the same breath as salvation. Tongues, on the other hand, are not mentioned specifically like that, not even once.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Baptism and repentance are mentioned in various ways, many, many times throughout the NT... not just one isolated mention of it.

Tongues are mentioned several times, as well.

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Believing/repentance/baptism are mentioned multiple times in the same breath as salvation. Tongues, on the other hand, are not mentioned specifically like that, not even once.

That's because tongues are not salvational, how many times must we say that?

[JamesGlen]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

John 7:37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The full pouring out of the spirit cannot come until after a sinner believes/repents, but that sinner cannot repent on his own efforts. The spirit of the Lord is present, drawing him, and moving in Him. But upon his obedience in repentance and baptism, then yes, the Lord is able to fully pour out His spirit.

Most certainly there are two baptisms, with water and with spirit, no argument there!

This word "full" you keep continuously adding, to fit your theory. But this word "full" is not found in Jn 7:39. Jn 7:39 does not paint a picture that part of His Spirit had been previously been given to dwell IN believers, and then the rest would come at Pentecost. It paints a clear simplistic picture that His Spirit was not yet given. Not yet given. How can one add the word "full" to what is not there, saying His Spirit hadn't been "fully" given?

With the underlined, above, you are insinuating AND claiming that there was an outpouring before there was an outpouring.
I just don't get that.
But I'll quit continuing for to post a disagreement with that.