Aquila? JD? Light? Why So Quiet?

[n david]

• Trump supports a national registry of all Muslim citizens.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump...ry?id=43639946
Earlier, I posted the claim hinged on the keyword "all." I need to add "citizens" to that as well. As the claim is written, it is false and misleading. Had you posted: "Trump supports a registry of Muslim immigrants and visitors who enter on visas from countries where extremist organizations are active," you would be correct.

But claiming Trump wants a registry for ALL Muslim CITIZENS is false and misleading.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by Aquila

n david, are you capable of stepping away from any loyalty to Trump

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Sorry, I know you didn't want a point by point rebuttal, obviously because you know such a point by point rebuttal would prove these claims to either be outright false or misleading, which is evident by your begging with capital letters to "PLEASE" not view this point by point. So, ignore if you wish, but I'm going to post a point by point to these. Also I'll do each with a separate post. I will skip the few which are true.

• Trump's campaign was assisted throughout his Presidential campaign by Russia (they will expect favors in return).

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/11/wo...ssia.html?_r=0
"Later, the Foreign Ministry in Moscow said Mr. Ryabkov had been referring to American politicians and supporters of Mr. Trump, not members of his campaign staff. The contacts were carried out through the Russian ambassador in Washington, who reached out to the senators and other political allies to get a better sense of Mr. Trump's positions on various issues involving Russia. A Trump spokeswoman, Hope Hicks, said Thursday that there had been no meeting between campaign staff members and Russian government officials during the campaign."

Something else to consider -- and this is from the NY Times --
"IT IS NOT UNCOMMON for the presidential nominee of major parties to have contact with foreign leaders, or to meet with foreign government officials."

It is not uncommon. Though it didn't even happen, and you know as well as I that had Trump or his staff been in contact with Putin or Russia as you allege, the media would have found out about it and they would have ran with it 24/7.

During the campaign, Hillary met with the PM of Japan and the President of Egypt.

What you are implying is that Trump had some shady, secret deals with Putin and the Russian government. You claim Russia will be expecting "favors in return," yet there's no shred of proof Russia even did anything worth receiving the alleged favors in return. You used this link as your proof, but this article does not back up your claim. Not one bit.

FINDING: False and misleading.

So you agree that Trump "supporters" had contact with Russian representatives. I assume that you don't deny that Trump has significant investments in Russia. You agree that Trump having contact with Russian leadership is acceptable seeing that he was running for President.

And you know... much of what you said would be reasonable. However, connect all of this to the fact that Russian hackers hacked into servers belonging to the DNC and Congressional Democrats, looking for information to leak to influence the election. And consider that Trump openly ENCOURAGED more of this illegal behavior if it led to information that might bring down political opposition (Hillary).

[n david]

• Trump has been ambiguous about internment camps, but uses language that would allow flexibility regarding the idea.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.ee30fe3199c2
I noticed you changed the claim...moved the goalposts back a bit. The previous claim was: "Trump appointed men who supported internment camps for Muslims." I guess you couldn't find anything to prove that claim. Nontheless...

Now you claim "Trump has been ambiguous...but uses language that would allow flexibility regarding the idea."

Using what I've read previously, and your source link --

"When asked whether he would have supported Japanese internment camps, Trump told Time that he could not say for certain. 'I would have had to be there at the time to tell you, to give you a proper answer,' he told the magazine. 'I certainly hate the concept of it. But I would have had to be there at the time to give you a proper answer.'"

Later in the article it states on multiple occasions, Trump stated he was NOT suggesting, proposing or agreeing with internment camps.

I fail to see the ambiguity in his answers to direct questions posed to him, whether he agreed or was proposing internment camps.

"No, I'm not. No I'm not." And, "I am not proposing that."

As to the first question I quoted, which could be the only statement by Trump which could be allegedly ambiguious; it was the correct answer. He's being asked about an event nearly a century ago and whether or not he would have agreed with the actions of President Roosevelt. It's easy for you and I (and that reporter) to sit here in 2016 and cast judgment on President Roosevelt for what he did. You cannot honestly state with 100% certainty that you would have been against the camps yourself. I couldn't say it. Certainly now the camps appear as a stain in our history, but at that time, at that moment, you cannot claim you would have been against it.

The claim, though changed, is still wrong.

[Aquila]

Imagine Hillary or Sanders not only having contact with the Presidents of Japan and Egypt.... but imagine Japan and Egypt illegally hacking into Republican servers to gather information to leak to the press to damage the Republican Presidential campaigns.

Would you be equally as accepting of all of this if it were Hillary that benefitted from the illegal actions of foreign hackers of nations that she had been cozying up to?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Trump praises Russia and known fascist dictator Putin repeatedly.[/LIST]True. Trump has praised Putin, Chinese communists and other tyrants for their "strong" leadership.

So, it's okay with you if Trump praises fascist dictators instead of condemning their tyranny.

At least Hillary publically condemned Putin as a soulless dictator. She has more "manhood" than Trump and is willing to call a dictator a dictator.

[n david]

I completely missed this whole post, a couple others while I was typing my long response earlier.

Originally Posted by Aquila

n david, are you capable of stepping away from any loyalty to Trump (or what is being falsely sold as a "conservative" agenda) to look at all of this with a critical eye?

Welp. I am NOT loyal to Trump. I was #NeverTrump during the election and still am not at all a Trump supporter. I criticized his "deal" with Carrier, though I was happy with the other deal with SoftBank. I'm critical of several of his admin and Cabinet picks -- AG Sessions, NSA Flynn, CIA Director Pompeo, Ed Secy DeVos, HUD Secy Carson.

Originally Posted by Aquila

When I do post my response, try not to cut it up to address it point by point. Because it isn't so much the individual points that are the issue. Just one of these hair-brained ideas could be scoffed at or seen as a single interesting "twist" in approach. The issue is the growing implication of all these points combined that reflect a specific style of leadership (fascism) and way of thinking (authoritarian).

I understand you want to cast it as an umbrella of sorts; however, if the spines holding the umbrella up are either absent or broken, the umbrella isn't going to hold up. That's what is happening with your list. Sure, it looks good at a glance. But when you actually look at each claim, one by one, the umbrella falls apart and you get soaked.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Trump said that those concerned with freedom of speech (and he mocked them with a sneering tone) are being "foolish". So, our Founders were foolish???

I've been very critical of Trump's comments towards free speech and free press. That is very troubling. But Trump is not a King just as obama is not a King. You have to remember the hysteria of the right when obama was elected. Alex Jones was predicting FEMA camps, gun confiscations and martial law. You tell me if those fears were founded in reality? This is the same thing. You have Trump, who liberals have cast as an evil villain -- much like obama was cast as one by the right. So liberals like yourself have not only listed valid concerns -- like free speech/press -- but also have gone into left field with a bunch of unfounded fears -- internment camps, etc.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Trump is trouble. He's an authoritarian fascist nationalist (let's just say it: a Nazi). You'll see this eventually. If not today, it will be another day. But I assure you that you will see this eventually. I know it in the marrow of my bones.

Alex Jones just knew in the marrow of his bones that obama was a communist who would impose martial law, confiscate guns and put all his opposition into FEMA camps. We'll see, at the end of 4 or 8 years, if your fears are correct.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, it's okay with you if Trump praises fascist dictators instead of condemning their tyranny.

At least Hillary publically condemned Putin as a soulless dictator. She has more "manhood" than Trump and is willing to call a dictator a dictator.

I never said it was okay, in fact I have condemned his praise of tyrants and dictators. Many times. All I agree with was the claim was true. I don't agree with Trump's praise of tyrants and dictators.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So you agree that Trump "supporters" had contact with Russian representatives. I assume that you don't deny that Trump has significant investments in Russia. You agree that Trump having contact with Russian leadership is acceptable seeing that he was running for President.

Based on your source link, neither Trump nor any of his campaign staff had contact with the Russian government.

I've stated it's very likely, as CEO of The Trump Company, that he may have investments in Russia. I do NOT believe there are any secret or scandalous deals or investments with Putin or the Russian government.

If Trump had sat down in the Kremlin with Putin (or had Putin visited Trump Tower) for a meeting, I would consider it the same as his and Hillary's meetings with the Japanese PM and Trump's visit to Mexico to speak with President Nieto.

Originally Posted by Aquila

And you know... much of what you said would be reasonable. However, connect all of this to the fact that Russian hackers hacked into servers belonging to the DNC and Congressional Democrats, looking for information to leak to influence the election. And consider that Trump openly ENCOURAGED more of this illegal behavior if it led to information that might bring down political opposition (Hillary).

I condemned Trump's encouragement of Russian hacking. I've also questioned Wikileaks involvement in releasing information only damaging to Hillary Clinton. I wish Wikileaks had put the same effort, or any effort, into exposing Trump's tax returns and other hidden information we may not know about regarding the Trump Foundation, Trump University or his various business dealings.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Imagine Hillary or Sanders not only having contact with the Presidents of Japan and Egypt.... but imagine Japan and Egypt illegally hacking into Republican servers to gather information to leak to the press to damage the Republican Presidential campaigns.

Would you be equally as accepting of all of this if it were Hillary that benefitted from the illegal actions of foreign hackers of nations that she had been cozying up to?

I'm not accepting of any hacking. I even stated the irony that Trump supporters were praising the illegal leaks given to Wikileaks, yet condemning any illegal leaks from Hillary or the media.

That said, full disclosure, I would have been very happy had Wikileaks released Trump's tax information or any information on Trump's dealings.