Changing To Preterism from Rapture Doctrine

[TJJJ]

I didn't say that anyone was saved or lost, you read too much into my statement.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

I didn't say that anyone was saved or lost, you read too much into my statement.

And perhaps you did not read my statement all the way through? I concluded with 'I know that is not what was meant to be conveyed, but it seems to me to be the inescapable logical necessary conclusion of the recent statements' (paraphrased).

[TJJJ]

Salvation is one thing, prosperity and maturity is another.

Fear based relationships are immature and nonprospering.

The command of Jesus was for a love based relationship.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So, only preterists are mature?

No. Only people who do not serve God out of fear of going through a horror on earth are mature, as per my point, when it comes to the issue of prophecy or salvation, etc.

And only preterists are genuinely saved?

lol. No. I thought I made that clear many times.

(I mean, if being afraid of judgment and wrath is not the real fear of the Lord, then it follows that those who have the 'fake' fear of the Lord are not saved...

You read too much into others' words. I never said that. In fact, I thnk people are genuinely saved if they experienced Acts 2:38 after being terrified to death to serve God. Acts 2:38 determine salvation, not how or why we got to it.

so it then follows that if futurists preach a fake fear of the Lord, and preterists preach a true fear of the Lord, it seems a necessary conclusion is that futurist preachers don't see anyone getting genuinely saved, but preterists - alone - do. So nobody really gets saved until they become preterists?)

I am certain this is not what was meant to be conveyed, but it seems to me that this is the inescapable conclusion of these recent statements?

Wow, you have an imagination that goes the wrong way and thinks to worst, brother. Phew. Hooey!

If you keep in mind what I just said here to you, and read how my other post FITS perfectly with it, you can realize you thought to worst.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

Salvation is one thing, prosperity and maturity is another.

Fear based relationships are immature and nonprospering.

The command of Jesus was for a love based relationship.

That's all fine and dandy, but I wasn't referring ONLY to your post.

Now, it does become clear that you believe only preterists are mature in the Lord.

As for 'fear based relationships are immature and nonprospering', I submit the following:

Pro_2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

Psa_111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

2Ch_19:9 And he charged them, saying, Thus shall ye do in the fear of the LORD, faithfully, and with a perfect heart.

2Co_7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2Co_5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Exo_18:21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:

I could go on, but I would like to see if anyone knows of any verse, one verse even, that suggests men should NOT fear God?

The fear of the Lord is CLEAN (Ps 19:9), it's not a bad thing. Should people be AFRAID of God? YES! See this:

Luk_12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

This was in contrast to fearing men who can kill the body. Jesus is not saying 'do not be afraid of men who can kill the body. But I will warn you who should respect (but not be afraid of)...'

We should not shrink from God in terror, we should flee from evil in the fear of God!

But anyway...

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Okay, I'm gonna play devil's advocate here, and ask... is it any different than pointing to the historical record regarding AD 70? I mean, there is not one verse in all the Bible that describes the events of AD 70, as past events, in fulfillment of prophecy. So you guys use a first century newspaper, and futurists use more recent newspapers. Is there really a difference?

That's ok, I think there is a huge difference with pointing to historical record, because it doesn't change with time. Newspaper and Wikipedia Exegesis is a house of straw built on sinking sand. Because take for instance the Antichrist/Beast everyone from Adolf Hitler, Mussolini, to Mikhail Gorbachev, Saddam Hussein, and Barack Obama have been labeled with 666. Yet, the players change faster then sand through the hour class. No one can deny the Roman destruction of Israel, the sacking of the temple, no one can present information that it really wasn't the Romans, but it was really Japanese Samurai who destroyed the temple and led away the inhabitants captive. No, we have historical facts that these things came to pass. While the Newspaper headlines end up making futurists look like fools, after the headline changes with the next current event.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

That's all fine and dandy, but I wasn't referring ONLY to your post.

Now, it does become clear that you believe only preterists are mature in the Lord.

As for 'fear based relationships are immature and nonprospering', I submit the following:

Pro_2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

Psa_111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

2Ch_19:9 And he charged them, saying, Thus shall ye do in the fear of the LORD, faithfully, and with a perfect heart.

2Co_7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2Co_5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Exo_18:21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:

I could go on, but I would like to see if anyone knows of any verse, one verse even, that suggests men should NOT fear God?

The fear of the Lord is CLEAN (Ps 19:9), it's not a bad thing. Should people be AFRAID of God? YES! See this:

Luk_12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

This was in contrast to fearing men who can kill the body. Jesus is not saying 'do not be afraid of men who can kill the body. But I will warn you who should respect (but not be afraid of)...'

We should not shrink from God in terror, we should flee from evil in the fear of God!

But anyway...

That fear mentioned in scripture is not nail biting nervousness, but RESPECT.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That fear mentioned in scripture is not nail biting nervousness, but RESPECT.

It is like fearing your father coming home when you were out of order. You knew your father wasn't going to kill you but you understood the penalty for disobedience. We love Him, because He loved us first, and that why we listened to our fathers because they loved us and only corrected us for our wrongs, because they loved us.

Respect is earned and it comes through His love and protection of us, not because we are shaking in our boots. God isn't an abusive parent which we have to worry when He is going to reach out and smack us across the head, or whip out His belt and beat the snot out of us for the slightest infraction.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

It is like fearing your father coming home when you were out of order. You knew your father wasn't going to kill you but you understood the penalty for disobedience. We love Him, because He loved us first, and that why we listened to our fathers because they loved us and only corrected us for our wrongs, because they loved us.

Respect is earned and it comes through His love and protection of us, not because we are shaking in our boots. God isn't an abusive parent which we have to worry when He is going to reach out and smack us across the head, or whip out His belt and beat the snot out of us for the slightest infraction.

And the terror of the Lord that moves us to win souls is not the a terror for ourselves to serve Him. It's for others.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

And the terror of the Lord that moves us to win souls is not the a terror for ourselves to serve Him. It's for others.

Yes, the same terror if you saw a child (who was not your own) running into freeway traffic.

You would want to stop the child and prevent their injury.