Question about Acts 2:38: What about the martyrs?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Amen. Once they're dead, it's out of our hands.

PREACH TO THE LIVING!

but Christ did not come for the righteous, but sinners, bro.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

oh, no doubt many Muslims attempt salvation by works, also, but as i said, they have Job, too. I'm not quite getting your "why question them;" Which them? Why Q the one and not the other? My answer would be "because i am not Muslim, and so would not presume to dictate to an unfamiliar culture; and because i am nominally a Christian--depending of course upon how one defines that--and so hope to help reveal Aquila's point here." If women will be saved in childbirth, and some women are Muslim, then it has not been grasped how "all Muslims are lost" cannot be true.

If you accept salvation by works, since you condone muslim faith that is soaked with salvation by works, then why do you judge those who ritualize their faith by rote? I do not condone rote ritual. I am saying you're being inconsistent if you think Muslims can be saved by works when the bible says nobody can be saved by works, yet you criticize ritualized pentecostals when they essentially do the same thing.

I'm assuming we all get the difference in "works" and "good deeds" here. Job practiced works; the good Samaritan did a good deed. If either serve the ego, they are vanity. This is how two may be working in a field, and one is taken while the other is left--the state of their heart.

When you win, you lose. This is a very hard piece of oneself to give up--as i demonstrate..all the time, lol. You have to lose, in order to win. You do not need all Muslims to be lost, in order to be saved. No switch gets thrown when one completes the ritual of Acts 2:38 as...Pentecostals understand it. It would serve them better to abandon that verse entirely now, believe it or not. Virtually all of the meaning has been warped out of it. You cannot accept Christ with your mouth.

My point is you have nothing to say about ritualized pentecostals since you believe in salvation by works, and you just saved them with the muslims. I think the bible teaches both are lost. But you contradict yourself when you slander ritualized pentecostals and think Muslims can be saved.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Re-read it. It's pretty self explanatory. Point is... experiencing the spiritual realities of Acts 2:38 doesn't always look exactly like the UPCI expects it to. The Spiritual realities in the conversion experience as described in Acts 2:38 are justification, identification, and regeneration. As we have seen... Spirit infilling (regeneration) can precede baptism (out of Acts 2:38 order). This is a very dynamic spiritual experience.

nice--i was wondering how the heck you were going to say anything else meaningful by way of explanation there.

Acts 2:38 becomes a snare for you when you imagine that you can guide someone through some process that fulfills it in several days, or a few weeks or whatever. And with all due respect, tacking on "with the evidence..." is just satan laughing at your expense, at that point.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by shazeep

but Christ did not come for the righteous, but sinners, bro.

You are quite right!

Had ALL of man been righteous, there would have been no need for a Savior! But you see
"ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Adam sinned and became a slave to
sin. Being a slave means that Adam GAVE HIMSELF over to someone else (satan), and Adam
was now not a free man. Because he was a slave, he didn't have any rights...not even to
save himself. Now because Adam could not save even himself, he also could not save any
one else; hence, a Savior was needed. A FREE MAN...a person who was NOT a slave.

Basically, salvation can be summed up this way: Jesus arose from the dead (because sin had
no hold on Him), and said, "FOLLOW ME!" Jesus has promised to save them who follow Him!

"...he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

If you accept salvation by works, since you condone muslim faith that is soaked with salvation by works, then why do you judge those who ritualize their faith by rote? I do not condone rote ritual. I am saying you're being inconsistent if you think Muslims can be saved by works when the bible says nobody can be saved by works, yet you criticize ritualized pentecostals when they essentially do the same thing.

ok, i'm not sure why it is not clear that i do not believe salvation by works, works. I said "no doubt many ATTEMPT salvation by works..." so, i hope (doubt) that that is cleared up

i am sure you don't condone rote ritual; we are talking, and too many words can make weary (or is that too much study? lol) So, i have a question for you:

Some might not have been baptized, and even if they were it might not have been in Jesus name. Some might not have spoken in tongues. Some might have been trinitarian. If Acts 2:38 is indeed the New Testament plan of salvation, have these martyrs for the cause of Christ died in vain?

Which i'm sure you have already answered, but just humor me.

Originally Posted by mfblume

My point is you have nothing to say about ritualized pentecostals since you believe in salvation by works, and you just saved them with the muslims. I think the bible teaches both are lost. But you contradict yourself when you slander ritualized pentecostals and think Muslims can be saved.

i certainly mean no slander, and hope you see that any perceived is just my failing. Muslims have an equally slim chance; the same one Pents have, and the same one the Wanderers in the Sinai had. They must also escape their religion, and keep their faith. What one calls themselves, or what dogma they pursue, is irrelevant to the state of one's heart.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok, i'm not sure why it is not clear that i do not believe salvation by works, works. I said "no doubt many ATTEMPT salvation by works..." so, i hope (doubt) that that is cleared up

Unless something changed, you told us Muslims can be saved by Muslim faith. And the entire muslim faith is salvation by works. The former resident muslim here, WALKSINISLAM said so. Salvation by works is part and parcel with Muslim religion. Walksinislam and I engaged the issue for days and he admitted doing good like Jesus did gets you saved. He did denied the death of Jesus is the only work that gets us saved. And he adamantly said Paul was wrong in Phil 2 where we must bow our knees to Jesus ALONE as Lord and King. He said doing good works, which he correctly claimed many Christians do not do, saves you, while Christians ARE NOT to believe in salvation by works. He did not realize that we are to do good works like Jesus, but not in order to be saved.

And you joined with him and condemned by position as in error. So you must believe in salvation by works. You refused to answer some direct questions and statements i made after that. And I have not chatted with you again until now. So what changed? Anything?

So, if you are now saying we ARE NOT saved by good works like Muslims demand we are, you are either not realizing your own self-contradiction, or you now see muslims are not saved. I doubt you see your own self-contradiction, and you still think Muslims are saved.

i am sure you don't condone rote ritual; we are talking, and too many words can make weary (or is that too much study? lol) So, i have a question for you:

Some might not have been baptized, and even if they were it might not have been in Jesus name. Some might not have spoken in tongues. Some might have been trinitarian. If Acts 2:38 is indeed the New Testament plan of salvation, have these martyrs for the cause of Christ died in vain?

My entire point all along has been I CANNOT SAY. And neither can you or anyone else. All I can say is that faithful obedience to Acts 2:38, and a life following that follows the words of the epistles allows us to say we are saved. WE CAN KNOW if we're saved or not. But those who experience LESS than that, I cannot and will not say. The closest I can say is that salvation by works is damnation, and those who are partway along in Acts 2 are folks whose shoes I would not want to be in because there's no grounds for them in the word. God alone has to deal with them. Those who reject Acts 2:38 are flat-out lost. But those who have not rejected it, but are only partway along the process are for God ALONE to judge.

Which i'm sure you have already answered, but just humor me.
i certainly mean no slander, and hope you see that any perceived is just my failing. Muslims have an equally slim chance; the same one Pents have, and the same one the Wanderers in the Sinai had. They must also escape their religion, and keep their faith. What one calls themselves, or what dogma they pursue, is irrelevant to the state of one's heart.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Unless something changed, you told us Muslims can be saved by Muslim faith. And the entire muslim faith is salvation by works. The former resident muslim here, WALKSINISLAM said so. Salvation by works is part and parcel with Muslim religion. Walksinislam and I engaged the issue for days and he admitted doing good like Jesus did gets you saved. He did denied the death of Jesus is the only work that gets us saved. And he adamantly said Paul was wrong in Phil 2 where we must bow our knees to Jesus ALONE as Lord and King. He said doing good works, which he correctly claimed many Christians do not do, saves you, while Christians ARE NOT to believe in salvation by works. He did not realize that we are to do good works like Jesus, but not in order to be saved.

And you joined with him and condemned by position as in error. So you must believe in salvation by works. You refused to answer some direct questions and statements i made after that. And I have not chatted with you again until now. So what changed? Anything?

So, if you are now saying we ARE NOT saved by good works like Muslims demand we are, you are either not realizing your own self-contradiction, or you now see muslims are not saved. I doubt you see your own self-contradiction, and you still think Muslims are saved.

Ok, well my position there is that what i think about Muslims or anyone else is not going to affect whether they are actually "saved" or "lost," those two black and white states that we almost universally imagine to be true, but will reveal the state my heart is in, which is all i care about. Maybe WII hasn't gotten to Job yet. Perhaps you meant to impart understanding, rather than to understand. I don't know. It happens.

And btw, i have already said all this, and i never said that i think Muslims are saved. I am not qualified to make such statements, owing to the beam in my eye. I am confident that their dogma provides a path for salvation, as i have read it myself, and seen Christ reflected in many Muslims. Whether or not they would have put it that way verbally is completely irrelevant to me, because they were saving me from sleeping in the square in a strange town, when they would have preferred not to.

Originally Posted by mfblume

My entire point all along has been I CANNOT SAY. And neither can you or anyone else. All I can say is that faithful obedience to Acts 2:38, and a life following that follows the words of the epistles allows us to say we are saved. WE CAN KNOW if we're saved or not. But those who experience LESS than that, I cannot and will not say.

Well, i would say that just as one cannot say "all Muslims are lost" with any confidence, "We are saved" is equally revealed to be an illusion, as no one that you tell those words to has lived their life out to the end yet.

So, yes, you can say that all you like, and you can even preach it, because after all, there is a sense in which it is true; but i suggest that these may be mis-heard, and become stumbling blocks rather than pointers. Beware that "faithful obedience" is not taken to mean "slavish verbal agreement," which "all Muslims are lost," "We are saved," and people being in disagreement with you over some jot or tittle automatically being condemned might indicate.

Talk is cheap. The Good Samaritan--an Arab guy, basically a pre-Muslim--is held up to us as an example to be emulated; yet he filled the Temple with human bones @ Passover, and would not have been remembered if a priest and a Levite had not already proved themselves unworthy. Pentecostalism seems to strive now to engender this false "Whew, i did Acts 2:38, so ty God that i have Jesus, and I'm saved, pulled from the flames that everyone else is obviously condemned to" yack, when i can connect its leadership to ISIS in about 3 clicks so, just something to consider.

[Esaias]

It's always, ever and always, "some other way".

The Naaman Syndrome. Anything but the Bible way.

Amazing the gymnastics people engage in to avoid the truth.

Fascinating.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

It's always, ever and always, "some other way".

The Naaman Syndrome. Anything but the Bible way.

Amazing the gymnastics people engage in to avoid the truth.

Fascinating.

i certainly understand why you say this, and encourage you to point out any untruth you may discern, preferably with Scripture. And i hope you are getting that i do not advocate abandoning Pentecostalism, if it works for you; after all, i learned most of this from a Pent. All i am asking is that you recognize how any knowledge might narrow down one's future point of view, as that "knowledge" becomes a filter.

As i'm sure you have discerned, Scripture is written in such a way as to divide two people on any one interpretation of a passage; religion seeks to make that decision for one, and then one may spend the rest of their days defending that interpretation, essentially closed off from any more illumination on the matter. So, it's a change your mind thing. Of course you have already done that; i am suggesting to not stop. Ever, perhaps, i don't know.

Merton suggests that if the you of 5 years ago does not consider the you of today a heretic, you are prolly not doing it right. I mean this as an invitation to Grace, to us, so mired in judgement. Certainly most, almost all, of the Muslims you will interact with--as if--are "lost," just like...everyone else. Pentecostal hierarchy notwithstanding. Are you going to ask them if they know the Lord? I suggest that there is a way to do that, to ask someone that, without words; and there is a way to witness Christ manifesting in someone who does not speak your language.

[shazeep]

apropos of nothing, i will tell you that dogs make a certain noise when the Spirit is manifest. Little kids react in a certain way. From about age 10 onward, the reactions start to diverge; but common sense will tell you that some reaction to the Presence must manifest. (I know the "dog" thing is hard to take--i mostly posted this to give people a way to dismiss all this )

you have been given physical access to the best Guide, imo, to finding the One Way; but whether you are Pent or Hare Krishna, you are going to have to overcome your dogma. Get above it. Use it as a guide, not an end. In order to not be under the Law, you have to be over it; get spiritual access. Stop defending your understanding, and actively seek others. You will not get zapped by God; you will be led. And, your old understanding will not vanish, you will be free to re-assume it if you like. You defend these because they define you now, as an act of SELF preservation. This too is illusion.