I still do no understand how one can get a doctrine from "I do not allow" as meaning God said that this is sin. Even Gods commandments are given with a "thou shalt not" not "I don't allow". Granted the "ministry" does have a given amount of authority in the church to oversee that things are run inorder. But this does not make it a command of God!!
Example: God commanded to remember the sabbath day and keep it holy.
Man in his quest to justify himself with works began to define what it ment to not work on the sabbath day. To the point of accusing the diciples of Jesus of sinning on the sabbath day because they were walking through a corn field shucking corn and eating it. Jesus told the religious men of that day they had no right to accuse his diciples because he was the Lord of the sabbath.
The point being God never said that a woman could not teach or preach or prophecy. What she cannot do is exercise authority over the man. Our society has a wrong view of what kind of authority the ministry has. The ministry does not have the kind of authority where a women or man can be caused to obey them on thier word alone.
For that matter we are not to blindly obey any man with out first searching out for ourself the truth of Gods word. So from my point of view all your controversy is a mute point.
Doe you also say a women can't wear a pair of pants also based on Deut 22:5?
Just some food for thought, I know I might come accross as I know it all I am working on that. I just want to cause every one to look at Gods word from his point of view (above) not not ours (below).
Good points. God never said anything about women preachers. If Paul didn't allow women to preach or teach, I assure you he had only men in the Sunday School department too!! Yet we don't do that today.
Apparently, it's ok for women to teach/preach to kids. They just can't to adult men. That's sad.
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Acts 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
Tell me, who is the THEY in verse 4? Men only? Prove it.
Verse 3 mentions men and women. Verse 4 calls them THEY. THEY preached.
I think alot of this argument arises in the context of institutionalized religious organizations where "pulpit ministry" is a major feature. In other words women are not allowed to be engaged in pulpit ministry per se so that precludes them from pastoring. This is utter nonsense.
The bottom line is this....is the woman(or man) doing the WORK of the ministry.....the bottom line is results......many women(as well as many men)just want to get behind a pulpit and rant and rave, but they don't want to cast out devils, heal the sick etc. They want ecclesiastical authority. I say if the woman is doing the works of Christ, then that's what matters.
I think alot of this argument arises in the context of institutionalized religious organizations where "pulpit ministry" is a major feature. In other words women are not allowed to be engaged in pulpit ministry per se so that precludes them from pastoring. This is utter nonsense.
The bottom line is this....is the woman(or man) doing the WORK of the ministry.....the bottom line is results......many women(as well as many men)just want to get behind a pulpit and rant and rave, but they don't want to cast out devils, heal the sick etc. They want ecclesiastical authority. I say if the woman is doing the works of Christ, then that's what matters.
Good Point
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Study the word with and open heart For if you do, Truth Will Prevail
I think alot of this argument arises in the context of institutionalized religious organizations where "pulpit ministry" is a major feature. In other words women are not allowed to be engaged in pulpit ministry per se so that precludes them from pastoring. This is utter nonsense.
The bottom line is this....is the woman(or man) doing the WORK of the ministry.....the bottom line is results......many women(as well as many men)just want to get behind a pulpit and rant and rave, but they don't want to cast out devils, heal the sick etc. They want ecclesiastical authority. I say if the woman is doing the works of Christ, then that's what matters.
Excellent. Christ never had to stand in a pulpit or even in a church to preach and witness to others. Crowds were always gathered around.
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Tell me Heavelnlyone, how did "they preach everywhere" when they were in prison?????????? And YOU "prove" to ME FROM THE LITERAL TEXTthat the women actually "preached". Where does the text say this? It doesn't. Preaching/teaching was reserved for men only, as Paul would later plainly state [I Tim. 2, I Cor. 14]. He derived his epistemology from the TANAKH, which never acknowledges this practice.
Man, it's sooooo plain.
Regarding the ol' Sunday school argument, this practice did not even exist in Bible times [didn't begin until the Colony days], so the argument begins outside of the Biblical text. In sum, I Tim. 2/I Cor. 14 are not addressing the issue of "Sunday School," since it did not even exist. Besides, the context is plain that this is referring to "or exercise authority OVER A M-A-N", not a child!
The pulpit argument does not even merit a scholarly analysis.
Of course, women should not wear a man's apparel! Would it be okay for me to wear a dress, or a veil?
Your response says exactly the opposite of the very Scriptures that you ironically appeal to. "I [U]DO NOT ALLOW A WOMAN TO TEACH, NOR TO EXCERCISE AUTHORITY OVER A MAN.[U]"
Is the preached Word of God Authoritative in its nature? Of course it is. This, the Apostle Paul prohibits. Then goes on to say, "THESE THINGS write I to you....., so that you may know how to BEHAVE yourself in the house of God, which is the CHURCH...."
Of course, women should not wear a man's apparel! Would it be okay for me to wear a dress, or a veil?
Your response says exactly the opposite of the very Scriptures that you ironically appeal to. "I [U]DO NOT ALLOW A WOMAN TO TEACH, NOR TO EXCERCISE AUTHORITY OVER A MAN.[U]"
Is the preached Word of God Authoritative in its nature? Of course it is. This, the Apostle Paul prohibits. Then goes on to say, "THESE THINGS write I to you....., so that you may know how to BEHAVE yourself in the house of God, which is the CHURCH...."
Plain as day! God Bless!
And yes it is ok for a man to wear a dress if that is the custom of that country. As for a women being used in the office of ministry again I repeat Paul was not giving a commandment even though he refers to creation, he is establidhing a precedent for his day. When women were not allowed to handle teaching. This does not by any means mean that God cannot use a women to preach or teach. I again repeat that the authority of the ministry is not that of a ruler as most denominations teach. The office of the preist hood is no longer in effect. Jesus is our high preist now The ministry is for edification and helps to the church that the church can do the work of the ministry. Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Eph 4:12 For the equipping of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: njkv
Where do we get the idea that the ministry is some high faulting position that has all this great amount of authority. The ministry is given as a gift just as the gifts of the spirit.
Note the verses below Peter does not address the ministry or even pastors he addresses elders.
1Pe 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
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Study the word with and open heart For if you do, Truth Will Prevail
Tell me Heavelnlyone, how did "they preach everywhere" when they were in prison?????????? And YOU "prove" to ME FROM THE LITERAL TEXTthat the women actually "preached". Where does the text say this? It doesn't. Preaching/teaching was reserved for men only, as Paul would later plainly state [I Tim. 2, I Cor. 14]. He derived his epistemology from the TANAKH, which never acknowledges this practice.
Man, it's sooooo plain.
Regarding the ol' Sunday school argument, this practice did not even exist in Bible times [didn't begin until the Colony days], so the argument begins outside of the Biblical text. In sum, I Tim. 2/I Cor. 14 are not addressing the issue of "Sunday School," since it did not even exist. Besides, the context is plain that this is referring to "or exercise authority OVER A M-A-N", not a child!
The pulpit argument does not even merit a scholarly analysis.
Argue with scripture. Scripture says THEY (referring to men and women who were placed in prison by Saul) were scattered abroad and preached. You want scripture to plainly say that women preached? Where's the scripture that plainly says only men preached??
Ever look at the definition of 'preach'?
1. to be a herald, to officiate as a herald
1. to proclaim after the manner of a herald
2. always with the suggestion of formality, gravity and an authority which must be listened to and obeyed
2. to publish, proclaim openly: something which has been done
3. used of the public proclamation of the gospel and matters pertaining to it, made by John the Baptist, by Jesus, by the apostles and other Christian teachers
Where is the acknowledgement above that says only men can do this? Women cannot publically proclaim the gospel, like Priscilla did to King Agrippa? They cannot proclaim openly something which has been done, like Mary did when Jesus wasn't found in the tomb? They cannot use the authority of the Word to compel people to obey it and be saved, like we are all instructed to do in Matthew 28:19??
Your argument lost it's steam. Your beef isn't with me, it's with scripture.
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Last edited by HeavenlyOne; 07-28-2009 at 06:20 AM.
Heavenlyone: The Scriptures in Acts 8:4 grammatically & contextually refers back to the ones who were scattered abroad in vs. 1, not vs. 3! Perhaps you should read slowly that you might understand context. Thus, YOU are the one who's arguing w/ God-Breathed Scripture [such as I Tim. 2, & I Cor. 14], not me. Where does the Bible affirm that the women whom you've referred to [& I've heard this stuff for years] actually "preached" a sermon to a church congregation? Oooops, it doesn't! They were simply witnesses, not "preachers/teachers" in the 5-fold ministry! I think I'll stick to the Book!
Godsdrummer: At what point did the God-Breathed Scriptures become merely relevant to "Paul's day"??????? Does this go for his teaching on faith also, or do we practice selectivity as to what we relegate to Paul's day, or not? "If any man thinks himseld spiritual or a prophet, let him acknowledge that the things that I write are the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD." Hmmmmm. Your comments are diammetrically opposed to the Bible's clear statements.
Your comment about dresses is silly, & I hope [I think you really are] that you're honest enough to acknowledge that! Since when do we appeal to culture for our doctrinal positions?
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