Tithing…Is it a command?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Tithes help sustain the ministry, keep the lights on, pay for land, buildings, sound equipment, ect.

can I get chapter and verse on that? How are sound systems "meat in mine house?"

Originally Posted by NotforSale

People that come to church, not supporting the "Structure", or that don't help sustain those who labor to "Feed" them, are stealing. This may offend you and others reading this, but it's the truth. It creates the "Taker" mindset, or the "Something for nothing (welfare)" mentality. Give me, and I'll take more!

There is nothing wrong with supporting ministry-but I for one am unimpressed with the argument of those "who labor among us". In my area many oneness pastors have never held a real job. I can't help but wonder who has the welfare mentality. I preach often, yet I work a full time job, and in addition, don't ask wages for preaching. If I can get paid from the secular world, why burden the church? Let someone who is in need get that money.

Originally Posted by NotforSale

In 30 years of serving God, I've seen all spectrums of this subject. I've watched those hord their money, only giving when it's conveinent. It is so obvious they are missing something, and struggles in life seem to always get the best of them. They're never really in, because they have their eye on their wallet. They also never appreciate what is around them, because the building, the lights, the signs, the parking lot, the electricity, the heat, the AC, the Pastor's salary, on and on we could go, is paid by those who dig deep and walk by Faith.

Have you ever read the parable of the righteous Pharisee and the humble sinner?

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Leaving it up to people to determine what percentage belongs to God will drive Churches to excessive fund raising, begging for offerings, and people who spend what's God's on things that don't last. It will also close the windows of Heaven, period!!

The church I attend teaches against tithes, yet somehow we make it just fine without all of the dire straights you name. I don't even know the recipe for peanut brittle, and have never seen a church garage sale (except at a tithing church). Furthermore, other groups who don't tithe-such as the Churches of Christ, JW's, etc. seem to be making it okay.

Originally Posted by NotforSale

If you don't want to Tithe because you see corrupted ministry or the mishandling of funds, this gives you no excuse to spend it on what you want.

change "tithe" to "give", AMEN.

Originally Posted by NotforSale

The Tithe is God's! And, most who Tithe give much more than 10% because they have proven God. That's right PROVEN Him!! The Bible says to PROVE God. I have, and He has never let me down. The cruse of oil faileth not!

Most people I have spoken to tell me how they struggle to even pay tithes. And I used to believe "tithes or HELL" myself, and belong to a church with that mindset. But many admitted to struggling just to pay them. I was even told by the minister that for a while He was putting tithes on his credit card because he was so broke.

Based on your post, I doubt you have ever truly studied out tithes according to the Bible, just sounds like alot of pot shots.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

I don't see any Scriptural reference in your response. In fact, you are going against Scriptural reference. The windows of Heaven opening is Scriptural, based on Tithing and giving. And, a great deal of people may have Tithed in that church, others not knowing if they did. Many people carry this conviction from the past and maintain this practice without wavering.

Also, numbers help a church, which you stated your church as being large. The more people, the less giving is needed to sustain. Starting a Home Missions work 11 years ago, no one knows what sacrafice is until they have experienced this type of ministry. Every resource possible was needed to get this work off the ground.

You also did not respond to what Jesus said; Give what belongs to Ceaser, and give what belongs to God.

What belongs to Ceaser? and what belongs to God? Percentage has to take part in both of these.

I didn't use scripture, because I wasn't responding to scripture. I was responding to your anecdotal evidence... fund raisers, etc.

And TRUST ME, there were no tithe-payers in that church. LOL. It was a very vocal anti-tithe church.

It was a very giving church, though. People were faithful with their offerings. It was taught 'whatsoever you purpose in your heart', and people gave those amounts faithfully.

People wrongly assume that all people who don't believe that tithing is a command are stingy givers. That hasn't been my experience. As a matter of fact, some of the most giving people I've known.... yes, money.... haven't believed that tithing is a command for the New Testament church. Even when I attended an anti-tithe church, I gave more than 10%.

[A.W. Bowman]

These kinds of forums, such as AFF, are great for expressing and sharing ideas and points of view, but they are almost worthless for sharing (presenting) a sound scriptural teaching – on almost most any subject! About the best anyone can expect is to state what they believe and why, and let everyone else do the same. That is, allow every opinion be “right” and simply allowing them to be expressed and moving on to the next discussion.

Or, the membership can set aside an open the forum to someone who has to be justified in their position, and turn the thread over to them – and allow them to teach their doctrine, and to do so with out objections or interruption.

On the issue of tithing, there are two decidedly different points of view being expressed. One is that tithing is not a New Covenant requirement, and other side is that tithing is required of N.T. believers.

For the side that says tithing does not exist for the N.T. church: That position is given as an axiom and does not require a proof. The burden of proof that tithing does, in fact, exist as a New Testament church requirement rests with the ones making the claim that tithing does exist and applies to the N.T. church.

Therefore, I make the following suggestion.

There are ten tithing statutes in the Bible. Will someone please take up the task of teaching the intent and application all these statutes, and explain how each of them are to be scripturally applied to the New Covenant church? Then if there are any questions, they can be addressed after the lesson(s). That should resolve the controversy quite nicely.

Let the teaching begin.

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

These kinds of forums, such as AFF, are great for expressing and sharing ideas and points of view, but they are almost worthless for sharing (presenting) a sound scriptural teaching – on almost most any subject! About the best anyone can expect is to state what they believe and why, and let everyone else do the same. That is, allow every opinion be “right” and simply allowing them to be expressed and moving on to the next discussion.

Or, the membership can set aside an open the forum to someone who has to be justified in their position, and turn the thread over to them – and allow them to teach their doctrine, and to do so with out objections or interruption.

On the issue of tithing, there are two decidedly different points of view being expressed. One is that tithing is not a New Covenant requirement, and other side is that tithing is required of N.T. believers.

For the side that says tithing does not exist for the N.T. church: That position is given as an axiom and does not require a proof. The burden of proof that tithing does, in fact, exist as a New Testament church requirement rests with the ones making the claim that tithing does exist and applies to the N.T. church.

Therefore, I make the following suggestion.

There are ten tithing statutes in the Bible. Will someone please take up the task of teaching the intent and application all these statutes, and explain how each of them are to be scripturally applied to the New Covenant church? Then if there are any questions, they can be addressed after the lesson(s). That should resolve the controversy quite nicely.

Let the teaching begin.

Excellent suggestion! I'll wait for the lesson, I'm sure it won't be a long wait. Right?

[Shawn]

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Jason

can I get chapter and verse on that? How are sound systems "meat in mine house?"

There is nothing wrong with supporting ministry-but I for one am unimpressed with the argument of those "who labor among us". In my area many oneness pastors have never held a real job. I can't help but wonder who has the welfare mentality. I preach often, yet I work a full time job, and in addition, don't ask wages for preaching. If I can get paid from the secular world, why burden the church? Let someone who is in need get that money.


Have you ever read the parable of the righteous Pharisee and the humble sinner?

The church I attend teaches against tithes, yet somehow we make it just fine without all of the dire straights you name. I don't even know the recipe for peanut brittle, and have never seen a church garage sale (except at a tithing church). Furthermore, other groups who don't tithe-such as the Churches of Christ, JW's, etc. seem to be making it okay.

change "tithe" to "give", AMEN.

Most people I have spoken to tell me how they struggle to even pay tithes. And I used to believe "tithes or HELL" myself, and belong to a church with that mindset. But many admitted to struggling just to pay them. I was even told by the minister that for a while He was putting tithes on his credit card because he was so broke.

Based on your post, I doubt you have ever truly studied out tithes according to the Bible, just sounds like alot of pot shots.

Your statement regarding Lights, Sound Systems, ect., is mindless dribble. In case you haven't noticed, these are a part of Church dynamics today in this Country. We use these modern day formats to accomplish many things; tape/CD ministry, Lights so we can have church at night, ect. When you eat at a resturaunt, the bill you pay helps to sustain the whole opperation, not just the food in the freezer.

I've pastored for the last 13 years, working a secular job most of the time. I'm currently self employed, running my own Insurance Agency for the last five years. This has enabled us to pay off our building and land early. We came to this city 11 years ago and started a church from nothing, having services in our home. If you haven't been invovled with this type of work, you will never understand the sacrafice and committment needed to really do God's work.

The amount of the Tithe has nothing to do with my post. The "Tithe" is what matters. You can be a theif if it's 10 cents, or 10 dollars. When the bill comes to the table after eating, that's what you owe. If you eat and don't pay or just pay part of the bill, you are a theif.

Tithe and offering are different. No rocket science here. Giving is a part of both. They both must come from a willing heart. All requirements of God must be done with a willing heart.

I never said "Tithe or Hell". And, your referall to amount has nothing to do with Tithing. It's not how much, it's are you Tithing. Anyone who puts Tithes on a credit card has a problem with money, most likely. Americans don't budget correctly, over-extending themselves.

As far as studying out the issue, you are the one who shows much ignorance. You, and others, have still not addressed what Jesus said about rendering unto God what is God's. What is God's?? There has to be an amount. Jesus compared what was Ceasers, to what was God's; a percentage prevailed here.

Furthermore, I'll say this. People in this Country have complained about Illegal Immigration. The number one reason for this is, this group of people has "drained" our system, bringing states like California to the brink of Bankruptcy. I am from California and lived there 34 years. I watched many changes take place because people were unwilliing to abide by the law of paying income tax, or use the medical system that they never contributed to, or live in public housing that was funded by government programs.

We can deny this all we want to, but the Church is a system, requiring financial proceeds. Tithing in this Country is on the down-turn, people becoming "Illegal Aliens", sucking from the system, and not appreciating what they have. They want to call the police, but not fund the police department. They want the protection of our Military, but don't want to pay those who are in harms way. They want the Pastor to run to their every need, but the Tithe, forget that, that's MY MONEY!!

And, it bugs me to no end, that the laity sometimes thinks the Pastor has to live like a paulper, while they drive a nice car and have a nice home. Our culture is different here, and we abound in ways because many Americans work very hard. I didn't ask to be born here, and my prosperity has come through getting off of the couch and embracing the field of hard work.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

I've pastored for the last 13 years

Great, then you should be well equipped to PROVE your assertion that tithing is required of New Testament saints.

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Working a secular job most of the time.

I have respect for that. What I can't stand is these preaches/pastors/evangelists who CAN NOT hold a job. And NEVER HAVE held a job.

Originally Posted by NotforSale

The amount of the Tithe has nothing to do with my post. The "Tithe" is what matters. You can be a theif if it's 10 cents, or 10 dollars.

Please show me one scripture in the entire BIble where any one single person tithed MONEY. Certainly it's in there-right?

Originally Posted by NotforSale

They both must come from a willing heart. All requirements of God must be done with a willing heart.

Agreed. And since were going to quote 2 Corinthians 9:7, let's take a look at the whole scripture:

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Please explain how teaching people that if they don't "tithe" they are robbing God is not teaching giving out of NECESSITY. Do you teach-"Tithing is optional, from a willing heart-but if you don't do it your going to HELL!"

Originally Posted by NotforSale

I never said "Tithe or Hell".

If you teach those who don't tithe are robbers and thieves of God-does not scripture tell us thieves will not inherit the Kingdom of God? It is impossible to really teach the necessity of tithing and say those who don't aren't going to hell.

Originally Posted by NotforSale

As far as studying out the issue, you are the one who shows much ignorance.

Great so you can tell us or show us where we can find scripture for tithing being money. Surely any well versed can teach us this simple doctrine. If I asked you to show me baptism in Jesus name-would you not go right to scripture instead of personal opinions. If its in there-lay it out for us.

Originally Posted by NotforSale

You, and others, have still not addressed what Jesus said about rendering unto God what is God's. What is God's??

Everything is God's. This includes but is not limited to money. I think sometimes you guys miss this scripture:

"Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute?"
Think about that-who do the kings of the earth take tribute
"of their own children, or of strangers?"
Peter saith unto him, Of strangers.
Keep reading.......
Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

We are the King's children. He does not exact a tribute from us-however we are told to give according to our own heart. According to what we have, not according to what we don't have. (Quite the opposite of tithing) We are also told that if we so sparingly we will reap sparingly.

Originally Posted by NotforSale

We can deny this all we want to, but the Church is a system, requiring financial proceeds.

No one is arguing this.

Originally Posted by NotforSale

And, it bugs me to no end, that the laity sometimes thinks the Pastor has to live like a paulper, while they drive a nice car and have a nice home.

ridiculous-no one thinks that.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Jason

ridiculous-no one thinks that.

I personally know many who do. It's a disgusting attitude.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Jason

Great, then you should be well equipped to PROVE your assertion that tithing is required of New Testament saints.


I have respect for that. What I can't stand is these preaches/pastors/evangelists who CAN NOT hold a job. And NEVER HAVE held a job.

Please show me one scripture in the entire BIble where any one single person tithed MONEY. Certainly it's in there-right?

Agreed. And since were going to quote 2 Corinthians 9:7, let's take a look at the whole scripture:

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Please explain how teaching people that if they don't "tithe" they are robbing God is not teaching giving out of NECESSITY. Do you teach-"Tithing is optional, from a willing heart-but if you don't do it your going to HELL!"


If you teach those who don't tithe are robbers and thieves of God-does not scripture tell us thieves will not inherit the Kingdom of God? It is impossible to really teach the necessity of tithing and say those who don't aren't going to hell.


Great so you can tell us or show us where we can find scripture for tithing being money. Surely any well versed can teach us this simple doctrine. If I asked you to show me baptism in Jesus name-would you not go right to scripture instead of personal opinions. If its in there-lay it out for us.

Everything is God's. This includes but is not limited to money. I think sometimes you guys miss this scripture:

"Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute?"
Think about that-who do the kings of the earth take tribute
"of their own children, or of strangers?"
Peter saith unto him, Of strangers.
Keep reading.......
Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

We are the King's children. He does not exact a tribute from us-however we are told to give according to our own heart. According to what we have, not according to what we don't have. (Quite the opposite of tithing) We are also told that if we so sparingly we will reap sparingly.


No one is arguing this.



ridiculous-no one thinks that.

Good post...

But... as is demonstrated time and again... It is hard to discuss something with someone who reads from "The Bible Of Their Own Predispositions"

You mention to them that, in 4000 years of recorded Bible history there is not one ounce of scripture that ever demonstrates that the tithe was ever anything but an agricultural tithe.

You ask for them to demonstrate just one mention in 4000 years of recorded Bible history where the tithe ever affected anyones earned wage income and they immediately start quoting from "The Bible Of Their Own Predispositions".

Or... they ignore the question all together.

You demonstrate in scripture that the statement in Malachi 3:8 was being made to the priests... not to the people... because the priests had not been handling the tithe according to God's law and the same happens.

You demonstrate in scripture that, if you want to live by the law of the tithe, that 10% of the tithe went to the priests, the levites, the porters, the musicians and everyone else and 90% was given to minister to the poor, the needy, the elderly, the traveler etc and that is completely ignored.

They find things like "How would we keep the lights on and pay the church note" to be as compelling as scripture itself. Of course... why wouldn't they... as this is a direct quote from "The Bible Of Their Own Predisposition".

I have discussed this so many times with so many people and those who are sold to sticking to their guns hear nothing. They quote often from "The Bible Of Their Own Predispositions" and run you down the rail with nothing but the occasional misquoted and misapplied scripture but mostly the regale you with their unfounded predispositions and then, amazingly enough, when it is over... they walk away shaking their head at how hard headed you were.

It never ceases to amaze me.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Good post...

But... as is demonstrated time and again... It is hard to discuss something with someone who reads from "The Bible Of Their Own Predispositions"

You mention to them that, in 4000 years of recorded Bible history there is not one ounce of scripture that ever demonstrates that the tithe was ever anything but an agricultural tithe.

You ask for them to demonstrate just one mention in 4000 years of recorded Bible history where the tithe ever affected anyones earned wage income and they immediately start quoting from "The Bible Of Their Own Predispositions".

Or... they ignore the question all together.

You demonstrate in scripture that the statement in Malachi 3:8 was being made to the priests... not to the people... because the priests had not been handling the tithe according to God's law and the same happens.

You demonstrate in scripture that, if you want to live by the law of the tithe, that 10% of the tithe went to the priests, the levites, the porters, the musicians and everyone else and 90% was given to minister to the poor, the needy, the elderly, the traveler etc and that is completely ignored.

They find things like "How would we keep the lights on and pay the church note" to be as compelling as scripture itself. Of course... why wouldn't they... as this is a direct quote from "The Bible Of Their Own Predisposition".

I have discussed this so many times with so many people and those who are sold to sticking to their guns hear nothing. They quote often from "The Bible Of Their Own Predispositions" and run you down the rail with nothing but the occasional misquoted and misapplied scripture but mostly the regale you with their unfounded predispositions and then, amazingly enough, when it is over... they walk away shaking their head at how hard headed you were.

It never ceases to amaze me.

But... as is demonstrated time and again...here is another post, stating facts like they lived 4000 years ago, understand the Cultures of that day, and, claim they know all about historical monetary systems that are vastly different than today.

c. 3000 - c. 2000 BC Development of Banking in Mesopotamia
Banking originates in Babylonia out of the activities of temples and palaces which provided safe places for the storage of valuables. Initially deposits of grain are accepted and later other goods including cattle, agricultural implements, and precious metals.

This is just a small bit of evidence, showing that the use of money as we know it today, doesn't even compare to that of yesterday. A paycheck, checking account, printing presses, coin factories, or money as we use today wasn't even a part of those in the day you are talking about.

They exchanged in bartering, agriculture, goods, precious metals, ect.

Quit using supposable facts to back your stance, when you do not present the facts about money and the economics of past civilizations. Tithing crops was the same as tithing our money today.

Your hard line approach to avoid the Tithe is typical to those who don't want to share the load. You'll pay your taxes, but you won't pay God, only because the Law of the land says to do so. Oh, but when God puts a Law down, you fight it, because you LOVE money!

I'm being bold here because money is a huge crossroad for people. The rich young ruler went away from God's will, all because of his wealth. The man with full barns was called a fool. Christians today are doing the same thing. I'll serve you God, as long as you don't touch my pocketbook or my barns!

When will people realize, Churches are built upon the backbone of those who Tithe!!