David Bernard Weighs In on General Board Decision - Page 20

Jehoram · #**191** 03-02-2008, 07:23 PM

BTW, the general board decided to raise the General Conference registration fee from $25 to $50 this year.

A_PoMo · #**192** 03-02-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alter Ego

Please explain this statement.

It's part of the ethos, the culture, the group think of the UPC. There are lots of systemic problems in the UPC, in my opinion. In the context of these remarks I'd say that one of them is whole idea of 'touch not my mine anointed' which is not biblical when its taken to mean that it's somehow improper or spiritually dangerous to challenge leadership and to hold them accountable for their actions. This has produced a good 'ol boy type environment where serious character flaws of our leaders are overlooked and justified on a regular basis out of 'respect' mixed in with fear of divine retribution. I'm not advocating an all out assault on leaders and pastors. But the idea that somehow it' out of line and inappropriate to hold them accountable for their funny financial deals, their manipulation of people and situations to their own gain, their aggressive promotion of numbers, their cronism, their nepotism, and many other manifestations of poor character is harmful to the body of Christ.

Certainly, I'm not saying ALL UPC ministers are like that. Certainly not. But I am saying that there are enough that it's a big problem and the solution is hindered by a flawed ethos that discourages honest accountability in these things and as a result the whole group suffers.

RandyWayne · #**193** 03-02-2008, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Certainly, I'm not saying ALL UPC ministers are like that. Certainly not.

I would make that statement a bit stronger and say that most aren't. But I agree with the overall point of the post.

It's come up on past threads where major issues concerning embezzlement/"missing" funds, and misguided sexual behavior have come up. There were always those who (thankfully in the minority as well) felt that it should all be handled internally -never involving the courts. But sometimes it does need to involve various members of the "criminal justice system that prosecutes". These are their stories....

A_PoMo · #**194** 03-02-2008, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I would make that statement a bit stronger and say that most aren't. But I agree with the overall point of the post.

It's come up on past threads where major issues concerning embezzlement/"missing" funds, and misguided sexual behavior have come up. There were always those who (thankfully in the minority as well) felt that it should all be handled internally -never involving the courts. But sometimes it does need to involve various members of the "criminal justice system that prosecutes". These are their stories....

I agree, most UPC ministers are good and not bad. I also appreciate your other remarks even though I'm not specifically talking about criminal behavior. I think the most insidious issues are the ones that aren't illegal as much as they are improper, inappropriate and ones that result in people being abused spiritually and emotionally. And the ones where men in power use their power to hurt innocent people and ministers. I've seen this sort of thing too often as men destroy other men out of anger and pride and then the abusers are given a pass due to their influence and the size of their church or the size, height and depth of their crony network.

RandyWayne · #**195** 03-02-2008, 08:03 PM

Agreed. Subtle impropriety is far far more damaging that out and out criminal behavior since it has the potential to scar people much more deeply, and for the rest of their lives.

A_PoMo · #**196** 03-02-2008, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Agreed. Subtle impropriety is far far more damaging that out and out criminal behavior since it has the potential to scar people much more deeply, and for the rest of their lives.

Yes, you're right. These are among the type of things systemically wrong w/the UPC and why I don't think it'll reform. It'd require a top to bottom change in culture and would require hugely unpopular leadership courage to bring the sort of spiritual repentance to change the culture. I don't see that kind of leadership currently being exercised either now or in the foreseeable future.

ManOfWord · #**197** 03-02-2008, 08:35 PM

I would like to point out that a discussion about an organization can be done in a civil manner while not ignoring the "warts" while refraining from personal attacks. This thread is proof of that.

I appreciate the manner in which this discussion has taken place. Those who disagree are certainly free to join in and draw attention to the good points of the org as well as it does have many.

Whole Hearted · #**198** 03-02-2008, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alter Ego

BTW, the general board decided to raise the General Conference registration fee from $25 to $50 this year.

What a great way to increase the crowds at conf. raise the fee to $50.00 and $75 for lat reg. hen one can enjoy the two to three hours offerings.

TrueNorth · #**199** 03-02-2008, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

What's even sillier ... is that those execs get honorariums from the very budgets they supervise ... for example various of them will go to a SEM conference and get a handsome offering from the dept. or division ... then turn around and tell the dept ... they got to cut back on spending.

Life is funny - I've worked some with that department and such was never the case.

A_PoMo · #**200** 03-02-2008, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

I would like to point out that a discussion about an organization can be done in a civil manner while not ignoring the "warts" while refraining from personal attacks. This thread is proof of that.

I appreciate the manner in which this discussion has taken place. Those who disagree are certainly free to join in and draw attention to the good points of the org as well as it does have many.

See! I CAN play nice.

However, what's to be done about it? What can be done? I'm not sure anything can be done because the system doesn't really allow for it as the whistle blowers are marginalized and good men are wounded and discouraged. I think good men would do something but are constrained by legalities and protocol and to some degree, fear. So we are left with the observation of Edmund Burke, "‘When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.’ It has been revised in the more popular, " ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."