Saved WithOut The Holy Ghost ?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

SO TR..are you saying that the "filling of the spirit" is differnent from the recieving of the spirit that John said wasn't happening yet.

You see how i and others say there is a differnce in being "filled with the spirit" and having received Christs spirit thru faith at repentance.

Two diferent things Having Christ dwelling in your life and being filled with the spirit are distinctly different experiences.

How is having Christ dwelling in us and being filled with the Spirit different?
Are these two different Spirits?
What scripture says we received the Spirit of Christ at repentance?
Do you realize if you received the Spirit of Christ at repentance then you are negating being saved by faith alone?

Sorry for all the questions but I want to understand where you are coming from.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

NOW WAIT A MINUTE. You are adding a work on our part to this. It is no longer JUST believing and obeying!!

Again, instead of answering with scripture, simply answer me. IS it ONLY Faith and Trust, or do you now add repentance into the salvation equation?

Originally Posted by J-Roc

Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What did he discover about being made right with God? If his good deeds had made him acceptable to God, he would have had something to boast about. But that was not God’s way. For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.

Don't hedge now. Is repentance mandatory for salvation, or is it JUST believe and Trust, as you have promoted.

With your above post, it seems to be saying that you do not believe one repents to be saved, but that they repent because they are saved. But I do not want to misrepresent you, so I am attempting to allow you to clarify.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Different entities ...??? Spiritually different???? Now there are 2 HOLY GHOSTS???

Stop the madness ... you use a verse that is not translated as you want to make it fit ... and I've gone mad??? Furthermore, when was Jesus glorified? Ascension or post resurrection? Did he not blow on them and tell his disciples receive ye the Holy Ghost post resurrection?

Jesus was glorified when he ascended into heaven to sit on the right hand of God. It was at this time that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to infill/indwell/baptize all believers, not post resurrection.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

NOW WAIT A MINUTE. You are adding a work on our part to this. It is no longer JUST believing and obeying!!

Again, instead of answering with scripture, simply answer me. IS it ONLY Faith and Trust, or do you now add repentance into the salvation equation?

The focal point of biblical repentance is the Lord himself. We turn from sin to the Lord....and 2 Chronicles 7:14 provides a good example of this:

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Turning from our wicked ways is certainly an important part of biblical repentance, but not the focus, “Seek my face,” God says. Turning from sin cannot save us from sin. Only turning from sin to the Lord, “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world,” can save us from sin (John 1:29). Therefore, total repentance is a total change in orientation from sin to trusting Christ. Our focus cannot remain sin-centered. That would not be true repentance.”

So, to sum up the answer to your question...when we trust in the LORD we are inherently turning away from sin and turning toward Jesus.

Repentance goes hand in hand with believing/trusting in Jesus.

[J-Roc]

I found this interesting:


“There are two ways to believe. The first way is to believe about God, meaning that we believe what is taught about God is really true. It’s similar to believing that what is taught about the devil or hell is true. This type of belief is more a statement of knowledge than an expression of faith.


“The second way is to believe in God. This not only includes believing what is taught about God is true but also includes trusting him and daring to be in relationship with him. It means believing without any doubt that he really is who he says he is, and he will do all he says he will do. I wouldn’t believe any person to this same degree, no matter how highly others might praise him. It’s easy to believe that someone is godly, but it’s another matter to completely rely on him.


“A person who believes in God believes everything written about God in Scripture. He dares to believe this in life and in death. This faith makes a person a true Christian and gives him everything he desires from God. A person with an evil, hypocritical heart can’t have this type of faith, for it’s a living faith, as described in the first commandment: “I am the LORD your God . . . Never have any other god” (Exodus 20:2-3).


- Martin Luther

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

The focal point of biblical repentance is the Lord himself. We turn from sin to the Lord....and 2 Chronicles 7:14 provides a good example of this:

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Turning from our wicked ways is certainly an important part of biblical repentance, but not the focus, “Seek my face,” God says. Turning from sin cannot save us from sin. Only turning from sin to the Lord, “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world,” can save us from sin (John 1:29). Therefore, total repentance is a total change in orientation from sin to trusting Christ. Our focus cannot remain sin-centered. That would not be true repentance.”

So, to sum up the answer to your question...when we trust in the LORD we are inherently turning away from sin and turning toward Jesus.

Repentance goes hand in hand with believing/trusting in Jesus.

So there is not a need to confess sins and all the alter stuff. Simply Believing in Jesus, and trusting him is automatically repenting of sins???

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

So there is not a need to confess sins and all the alter stuff. Simply Believing in Jesus, and trusting him is automatically repenting of sins???

James 2:19 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)


19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

I found this interesting:


“There are two ways to believe. The first way is to believe about God, meaning that we believe what is taught about God is really true. It’s similar to believing that what is taught about the devil or hell is true. This type of belief is more a statement of knowledge than an expression of faith.


“The second way is to believe in God. This not only includes believing what is taught about God is true but also includes trusting him and daring to be in relationship with him. It means believing without any doubt that he really is who he says he is, and he will do all he says he will do. I wouldn’t believe any person to this same degree, no matter how highly others might praise him. It’s easy to believe that someone is godly, but it’s another matter to completely rely on him.


“A person who believes in God believes everything written about God in Scripture. He dares to believe this in life and in death. This faith makes a person a true Christian and gives him everything he desires from God. A person with an evil, hypocritical heart can’t have this type of faith, for it’s a living faith, as described in the first commandment: “I am the LORD your God . . . Never have any other god” (Exodus 20:2-3).


- Martin Luther

Some times we are accused of making it too easy or too simple when we talk about a person being saved or justified by faith. The way I understand it is that faith is not just mentally agreeing with some one or some thing. Faith results in action.

Hebrews chapter 11 is called “the faith chapter” or “God’s Hall of Fame.” Throughout the whole chapter we are given example after example of people of faith. In each case the faith of these people resulted in action. Over and over we read, “by faith, so and so DID such and such.” It is an action chapter. Joni Eareckson -Tada said, “Faith isn’t the ability to believe long and far into the misty future, It’s simply taking God at His Word and taking the next step.” Martin Luther King said, “Take the first step in faith. You don’t have to see the whole staircase, just the first step.”

These are some notes that I’ve written in my Bible in chapter 2 of the Book of James. Some are attributed to the person who said or wrote them, others I don’t remember where I heard or saw them.

"Faith is the root of salvation, works are the fruit."

John Calvin said, “Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone.”

“Faith is not even worthy of the name until it erupts into action,” Catherine Marshall

“Faith is never passive. It is an action word. It is not just mental assent. It demands a response --some kind of action,” Bill Bright

"Doing, not doctrine, is the test of faith."

"Faith leads people to do what the men of the world cannot understand at all."

Rev. Dr. Halsey Dewey spent at least 30 years as a missionary for the Methodist Church in India. On one occasion he invited Mahatma Gandhi to speak to his congregation. Gandhi said, “If you Christians would truly follow the teachings as found in your Bible, you could take this city by storm.”

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Believing in Jesus or believing on Jesus, or trusting in Jesus as Savior.

I’m not quite sure what “easy believism” is. I’ve heard the term before and I think it means just a mental assent to something or what we might call head faith. For example we could say we believe in George Washington or we believe in Abraham Lincoln This could mean that we accept the concept that there was indeed an historical person named George Washington and one named Abraham Lincoln. Many people believe in Jesus this way. Yes, there was years ago a person named Jesus who lived, taught, and died in the area we now call Israel. I don’t think that is what the Bible means when it speaks of believing in or having faith in Jesus Christ. James chapter 2 speaks of faith which is demonstrated by and accompanied by action contrasted with just saying we believe. The difference would be between head faith and heart faith or between living faith and dead faith. James 2:18 sarcastically says that just claiming to believe doesn’t mean much because the demons believe in one God and obviously they are not saved by that kind of faith. Some times we hear the term saving faith which would mean a trust in or surrender to Jesus.

John 1:12 says that if a person receives Jesus he then has the right to become a child of God. The term receive is then expanded to mean believing in His name. Acts 16:31 says believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. 1 John 5:1 says that whoever believes that Jesus is the Anointed One or the Christ has been born of God. Romans 10:9-10 says that if a person confesses with his mouth Jesus as Lord and believes in his heart that Jesus has risen from the dead, that person is saved. This is further explained that with the heart a person believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. In other words, salvation occurs when a person believes in or trusts in Jesus. One of the pastors of the VCC where I used to go says he prefers to use the word trust instead of faith or believe. One of the Bibles that I regularly use, The Complete Jewish Bible, uses the words trust or trusting instead of faith, believe or believing.

These are a couple of notes from the Spirit Filled Life Bible, copyright 1991, Jack Hayford, General Editor. These notes attempt to define the words believe and faith as used in the Old and New Testaments.

Believe, Hebrew word aman, Strong’s number 539, To be firm, stable, established; also, to be firmly persuaded; to believe solidly. In its causative form aman means to believe, that is, to consider trustworthy. This is the word used in Gen 15:6, when Abraham believed in the Lord. ...From aman comes emunah, faith. The most famous derivative is amen which conveys this idea; It is solidly, firmly, surely true and verified and established.

Faith, Greek word pistis, Strong’s number 4102. Conviction, confidence, trust, belief, reliance, trustworthiness, and persuasion. In the NT setting, pistis is the divinely implanted principle of inward confidence, assurance, trust, and reliance in God and all that He says.

Believe, Greek word pistseuo, Strong's 4100, The verb form of pistis, faith. It means to trust in, have faith in, be fully convinced of, acknowledge, rely on. Pisteuo is more than credence in church doctrines or articles of faith. it expresses reliance upon and a personal trust that produces obedience. It includes submission and a positive confession of the lordship of Jesus.

This is a note from the preface of the Amplified Bible
...Acts 16:31 reads: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. What does the word believe mean? Webster defines it: to place credence...apart from personal knowledge; to expect or hope...to be more or less firmly persuaded of the truth of anything, to think or suppose. In this sense, most people believe in Christ --that He lived; that He was a perfect Man Who sincerely believed Himself to be the Son of God, and that He died on the cross to save sinners. But this is by no means the meaning of the Greek word which twenty-two New Testament versions out of twenty-four consulted render believe. They do so because there is no one English word that adequately conveys the intended meaning. Actually, the Greek word used here for believe is pisteuo. It means to adhere to, cleave to, to trust, to have faith in; to rely on. Consequently the words, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ really mean to have an absolute personal reliance upon the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.

This is the way Acts 16:31 reads in the Amplified Bible
31And they answered, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ give yourself up to Him, [take yourself out of your own keeping and entrust yourself into His keeping] and you will be saved, [and this applies both to] you and your household as well

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

I might be posting this in the wrong area and if so please forgive me.
I understand some Pentecostal groups and some here on AFF ,believe one is saved and then filled with The Holy Ghost.Evidently a fair amount of OPs teach this.
Now this is asked in charity, but I do read scriptures that say without the Spirit of Christ you can't be His,or none of His Or I read verses that say it is by One Spirit we are baptized into one body.

Ok what is the difference in receiving the Holy Ghost and being baptized with The Holy Ghost ?Isn't terms like being filled with The Holy Spirit and such synonymous terms for the same experience.
If regeneration is a work of the Holy Spirit how can one be regenerate with the Spirit of Christ ?

Also doesn't receiving the Spirit comes after repentance and not at repentance I understand.Because doesn't ACTS.2:37,38 teach that the Holy Ghost comes after repentance.

So can one be saved and not have the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit ?

I am open-minded and willing to hear other's views on this subject.

Different works/operations of the Holy Ghost produce different effects. That's the answer to your question.

I came across the scripture that affirms this point but I'd have to go look for it because I forget the reference and I'm going to bed instead.

God bless!

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

So there is not a need to confess sins and all the alter stuff. Simply Believing in Jesus, and trusting him is automatically repenting of sins???

Isnt it amazing how through one man Adam we are all condemned, but through one man Jesus we are given right standing? Here is the stark contrast. How can it be that Jesus is the answer? SOMEONE PLEASE POINT ME TO THE CROSS!!!



For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.
Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous. (Romans 5)