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  #11  
Old 11-04-2007, 10:37 PM
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Sam Sam is offline
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6 Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. 7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; 8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?... 1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach complete.... 11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. 15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

The old and new covenants are contrasted:
thousands of priests versus one;
the old priests continually standing versus the sitting down of the new priest;
repeated offerings versus a once-for-all offering;
the Old Testament offerings were temporary looking forward by faith to the time when God would provide Himself a Lamb, since then we look back by faith to the cross;
sin was rolled forward to the cross, it was not removed, now sin has been fully dealt with and removed;
Jesus took our sin so that we could receive His righteousness
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Sam also known as Jim Ellis

Apostolic in doctrine
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Charismatic in practice
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  #12  
Old 11-05-2007, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
Then please explain how men had forgiveness of sins in the OT but NOT remission?
I understood that sins of the O.T. were getting rolled ahead to Calvery.
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  #13  
Old 11-05-2007, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
Men recieved forgiveness in the OT but sins were NOT taken away. Thus NOT remitted. Heb. 9 & 10 gives lessons on this subject.
Thus forgiveness though connected with remission is NOT remission.
I have come to understand that men were saved by faith in the promise of Christ. If Christ had not paid for their OT sins then no one would have ever been saved.

Weren't sins forgiven with the understanding that Jesus Christ would was coming to purchase our sins.
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  #14  
Old 11-05-2007, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by deltaguitar View Post
I have come to understand that men were saved by faith in the promise of Christ. If Christ had not paid for their OT sins then no one would have ever been saved.

Weren't sins forgiven with the understanding that Jesus Christ would was coming to purchase our sins.
Certainly they were forgiven but only shed blood remitted their sins at Calvary and ONLY in baptism in Jesus Name do we appropriate remission of sins though faith in his blood by obeying the gospel. Baptism in Jesus Name ONLY remits past sins of the pentitent in this age. Fatih causes a man to confess-faith causes a man to turn from their sins and turn to God and faith remits that man's sins when he is baptized in Jesus Name. Repentance ALONE no more can save than baptism ALONE. One without the other will not satisfy the the requirments of NT salvation.
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  #15  
Old 11-05-2007, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
It's never made sense to me that God would forgive and then hang on to what He's forgiven us of.

We counsel people to forgive and forget based on what Scripture teaches and on God's grace and mercy that He has shown us.

The debt was settled on Calvary.
That is why He said "It is finished".
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  #16  
Old 11-05-2007, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
Certainly they were forgiven but only shed blood remitted their sins at Calvary and ONLY in baptism in Jesus Name do we appropriate remission of sins though faith in his blood by obeying the gospel. Baptism in Jesus Name ONLY remits past sins of the pentitent in this age. Fatih causes a man to confess-faith causes a man to turn from their sins and turn to God and faith remits that man's sins when he is baptized in Jesus Name. Repentance ALONE no more can save than baptism ALONE. One without the other will not satisfy the the requirments of NT salvation.
Once again there is a failure in understanding that forgiveness/remission mean the same thing in the NT. It is difficult to continue this discussion if the terms cannot be agreed upon.
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  #17  
Old 11-05-2007, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
That is why He said "It is finished".
And it was. Thank God for the Finished Work of Calvary. I believe it and preach it. Calvary alone could pay for my sins. He became my sacrifice and sin-bearer. Died for my sins and rose for my justification. Thus by obeying the gospel I identify with His death-burial-ressurection.
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  #18  
Old 11-05-2007, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
Once again their is a failure in understanding that forgiveness/remission mean the same thing in the NT. It is difficult to continue this discussion if the terms cannot be agreed upon.
Dan our problem in discussing this is your Calvinist position that faith ALONE procurs salvation without ANY obedience from the penitent. Salvation is by grace through faith in EVERY aspect of obeying the gospel.
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  #19  
Old 11-05-2007, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
Dan our problem in discussing this is your Calvinist position that faith ALONE procurs salvation without ANY obedience from the penitent. Salvation is by grace through faith in EVERY aspect of obeying the gospel.
Once again words are placed in Dan's mouth as to what his position is ... You refuse to honestly discuss the term aphesis as it pertains to the NT. Nor can you refute this BIG HOLE in your theology ...

Your 3 step view of procuring God's grace ... and what each step actually accomplishes in our New Birth is also filled w/ GAPING HOLES .... as demonstrated here many times.

No one disagrees that we are to obey God's Word ... NEVER BEEN THE ISSUE .... but it is the when, how and what happens during the New Birth .... this has always been at issue ....

Until we agree on these terms ... it's moot.
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  #20  
Old 11-05-2007, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
And it was. Thank God for the Finished Work of Calvary. I believe it and preach it. Calvary alone could pay for my sins. He became my sacrifice and sin-bearer. Died for my sins and rose for my justification. Thus by obeying the gospel I identify with His death-burial-ressurection.
We agree w/ most of this statement ... it is in the re-enactment theology that gets you guys in the biggest conodrums.
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