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| Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other. |
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10-15-2007, 07:40 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arphaxad
That's why I ask questions to the things I am ignorant of.
(''Wasn't it the humanity of Jesus that died?'')
Thanks be to God that total knowledge is not a requirement of salvation.
ARPH  |
Well let me ask you some questions...what is "humanity"? Is Humanity a person or a nature? Is Humanity a who or a what?
Now...when you die do YOU die or does your humanity die? Is your humanity something separate from you?
Death does not mean "cease to exist"
See...my question is WHO died? Was it someone other than Jehovah or did Jehovah experience this death Himself through His human nature?
If that is the case then God did die...God in person, not God in Divine nature. If that is not true, then you have two persons....unitarianism, Arianism whatever
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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10-16-2007, 12:36 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Well let me ask you some questions...what is "humanity"? Is Humanity a person or a nature? Is Humanity a who or a what?
Now...when you die do YOU die or does your humanity die? Is your humanity something separate from you?
Death does not mean "cease to exist"
See...my question is WHO died? Was it someone other than Jehovah or did Jehovah experience this death Himself through His human nature?
If that is the case then God did die...God in person, not God in Divine nature. If that is not true, then you have two persons....unitarianism, Arianism whatever
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If referring to the PERSON, and claiming the PERSON of God died, since the PERSON of God is the same PERSON of the humanity, then ... If the PERSON of God died, does that mean there was no living GOD for that duration?
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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10-16-2007, 03:29 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
If referring to the PERSON, and claiming the PERSON of God died, since the PERSON of God is the same PERSON of the humanity, then ... If the PERSON of God died, does that mean there was no living GOD for that duration?
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This is falling into the fallacy that death means cease to exist...
I don't believe death means cease to exist and therefore the person of God did not cease to exist nor did His Divine essence cease to exist. He died through the Human nature. He experienced death.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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10-16-2007, 04:57 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
This is falling into the fallacy that death means cease to exist...
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Good point. Granted. However, when one continues to exist upon death, what is it that Christ experienced in that continued existence having died? Do we say God experienced that because His person did?
Quote:
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I don't believe death means cease to exist and therefore the person of God did not cease to exist nor did His Divine essence cease to exist. He died through the Human nature. He experienced death.
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But what was the nature of the Person's existence, during his experience of death for the three days?
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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10-16-2007, 08:36 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
Good point. Granted. However, when one continues to exist upon death, what is it that Christ experienced in that continued existence having died? Do we say God experienced that because His person did?
But what was the nature of the Person's existence, during his experience of death for the three days?
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Why not? If Jesus is the same person as God, then when Jesus died the person of God experienced it through the Human nature. Otherwise are we going to say Jesus is NOT the same person as God and thus there are two persons (selfs, individual whos)
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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10-17-2007, 01:53 AM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,740
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Praxeas,
You look like you need a break from AFF.
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE....  My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
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10-17-2007, 11:58 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh
Praxeas,
You look like you need a break from AFF.
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That's Homer Simpson, not me......sheeeeeesh. DOH!
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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10-18-2007, 12:06 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Why not? If Jesus is the same person as God, then when Jesus died the person of God experienced it through the Human nature. Otherwise are we going to say Jesus is NOT the same person as God and thus there are two persons (selfs, individual whos)
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Jesus is certainly the same person as God. But to say God experienced these things through the humanity causes us to somewhat become trinitarian, to say that God died. I am just wondering how we should properly speak of this.
Trinitarian Gregory Boyd said the very thing you said. God died, was born of Mary and so on. All because God experienced this through the humanity of Jesus. So now we have Mary the mother of God.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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10-18-2007, 12:10 PM
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A Heart of Worship!!!
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: H-Town, Tejas!!!
Posts: 20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FEEDMYSHEEP
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Everything you said makes perfect sense to me...except for this point. WHAT?
The scripture you gave doesn't even denote that.
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10-18-2007, 02:41 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
Jesus is certainly the same person as God. But to say God experienced these things through the humanity causes us to somewhat become trinitarian, to say that God died. I am just wondering how we should properly speak of this.
Trinitarian Gregory Boyd said the very thing you said. God died, was born of Mary and so on. All because God experienced this through the humanity of Jesus. So now we have Mary the mother of God.
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No it does not cause us to become Trinitarian, anymore than using the word person does. Just because we agree with something a Trinitarian does does not make is Trinitarian. They say one God, so do we. They say Jesus is God, so do we. They say the Son Died, so do we. They say incarnation, so do we.
Im not afraid to use a term or phrase just because Trinitarians use it. I think that is inconsistent and illogical.
Trinitarians believe a Second person who was God died. They believe in three persons that are God,
So just admitting that Jesus is God and Jesus died....God died, does not make me Trinitarian.
We have to distinguish between what and who. If Father and Son are the same WHO then we are certainly NOT Trinitarian nor Unitarian. If Father and Son are NOT the same WHO then we got problems.
If we are Oneness and we believe there is only one Personal Deity and that God was incarnate in humanity, then Father and Son are the same Person. And if the Son died then the same person that is the Father also died.
The next question is HOW. How do we all experience death? Through a human nature. God through the Humanity experienced everything humans do except sin. He knew what it was like to sleep, eat, be tired, suffer pain, suffer rejection and even death, the final thing that man can experience. He experienced it through His human nature.
So when I say God did die, I mean His person through the Human nature died. His Divine nature did not die. Divine nature can't die.
BTW Mary is the mother of the humanity, but the person of God always existed so she is not literally the mother of Him personally. However one thing that should be noted: the original claim was that she was God bearer....in other words she carried God incarnate in her womb. That does not necessarily have to mean she genetically produced God HImself. Even a surrogate mother having an implant is carrying that unborn child, but did not genetically produce it.
I never use the term Mother of God ever though.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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