Martyrdom

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Theophilus

I wouldn't expect any other answer from you, but I did feel as though there might be some that would challenge a martyr's salvation.

I suppose that there are variant doctrines within the OP movement, even concerning salvation, however some of these Anabaptist doctrines vary much further, especially with respect to time amongst themselves. However, it seems that early Anabaptist doctrines are more akin to some of ours.

I've even read of some more recent examples of martyrdom and thought on the eternal fate of these that refused to deny Christ. I tend to believe that these circumstances bring forth a whole new perspective on salvation and wanted some unbridled Apostolic input. Thanks, God Bless, Theo.

Yes .... well that I've been thinking about that mixing up a pan of squares here since I wrote what I did and thinking that maybe I should have taken more care with my answer.

I certainly don't believe that martyrdom is in and of itself salvatory and possibly not even accompanied by faith.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Theophilus

I'm not sure of the exchange rate currently. I'd have to look into how to do that, good point.

Aha! So you didn't even take us foreigners into consideration.

Originally Posted by seguidordejesus

If, as some believe, Trinitarians worship another god....

Then why on earth would their dying for THEIR god be any different than a Buddhist dying for theirs?

(this, of course, is only applicable to those who believe the initial statement)

That is a great point. Although it is apparent that some trinitarians did/do worship another god, most did/do not. They simply are under a centuries old misunderstanding of the Godhead as a unified threesome "mystery." It becomes particularly troublesome when it interfers with baptism wherein a rejection of Christ's Name may well be just as costly as if one denied Christ in any other way.

I believe that most accounts of martyrdom are the result of an understanding of both what Jesus warned and taught, and who they were dying for, even if they didn't understand the Godhead completely.

Originally Posted by Felicity

Aha! So you didn't even take us foreigners into consideration.

I sure did, I just didn't consider any other medium of exchange.

Originally Posted by Felicity

Yes .... well that I've been thinking about that mixing up a pan of squares here since I wrote what I did and thinking that maybe I should have taken more care with my answer.

I certainly don't believe that martyrdom is in and of itself salvatory and possibly not even accompanied by faith.

See now you'll have to expound.

First, I would suggest that it takes phenomenal faith to face the question knowing the repercussions: "Do you confess or deny Jesus Christ?"

It takes phenomenal faith to respond with the answer that will cost you everything.

Can you think of a martyr's situation that doesn't require a sincere walk with God, irregardless of the place wherein that person was?

[Felicity]

I agree with your suggestion - absolutely and I agree that it would take exceptional faith but I've watched Roman Catholics mount hundreds of steps on their knees because of "faith". Of what sort of faith though ... that is the question. Do they have a real personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Have they been truly regenerated/born again? Or is it the works expected of those with a dead religion?

Could martyrdom not occur based on the same premise and from the same kind of religious fervency and devotion?

Originally Posted by Felicity

I agree with your suggestion - absolutely and I agree that it would take exceptional faith but I've watched Roman Catholics mount hundreds of steps on their knees because of "faith". Of what sort of faith though ... that is the question. Do they have a real personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Have they been truly regenerated/born again? Or is it the works expected of those with a dead religion?

Could martyrdom not occur based on the same premise and from the same kind of religious fervency and devotion?

Good points and questions. Interesting that you mention the Catholics for they have been the perpetrators of much persecution against the Christian faith.

I'm not sure that those of a shallow or superficial walk could answer such a question knowing that torture, and often slow, cruel death awaits.

You're last question brings to mind the Islamists that martyr themselves. I am assuming that you might have this in mind. I'm only considering those that were martyred for Christ and His Name.

Of course this also brings to mind those "christians" killed during the crusades. Perhaps this is your reference. Were they really martyrs? I don't believe so.

I suppose believing that you have died for Christ and actually dying for Christ can be two separate things. However, the accounts of martyrs in this book are quite different from someone dying while murdering there fellow man while using the name of Christ.

Studying church history, with respect to the various Catholic onslaughts, coupled with a study into the great whore of The Book of Revelation, leads me to consider these, and other martyrs at the hands of the catholic church, to be valid in God's sight, despite the potential for doctrinal shortcomings with respect to the plan of salvation. I have to believe that these accounts are of those that were in a sincere and personal walk with Christ to some degree when they were given an ultimatum. God Bless, Theo.