Rapture in the New Testament

[mfblume]

The Latin Vulgate does not alter nor change anything in 1 Thess 4 where we read about being "caught up". The Latin word for caught up is similar to the english word "rapture". It's as wrong to say RAPTURE in Latin is not the same word as CAUGHT UP in Greek as it is to say YES in LATIN is not YES in Greek or English. When a certain word is in several languages in obvious different forms, we cannot say that the same word in one of those languages is incorrect. Hence, the word rapture IS in the Bible in the Latin version of "caught up".

Sam is correct. "RAPIEMUR" is lation for "caught up." The english word RAPTURE is taken from the Latin. In the original Greek the word used for what we know in the King James version as "caught up" is "Harpazo". This word means a sudden and physical withdrawl. A snatching away in essence. The Catholics wanted a version of the Bible in the common language of the time around 350 A.D. They translated the original word "Harpazo" into "Rapiemur". This is where the word "Rapture" comes from. In Latin "Rapiemur" means the same thing as "Harpazo". A sudden and physical withdrawl. A snatching away in essence. When the King James version appeared the word "Rapiemur" was changed to "Caught Up". In between the Latin Vulgate and the King James versions other Bible versions also used the word "Rapture".

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84

The Latin Vulgate that we currently have was "translated" at the height of the Catholic Churches' (misuse of) power... If there ever were a time that you can't trust a translation of a Bible, its the Latin Vulgate...

mfblume has given a good accounting of the Latin passage in question. Someone came to me with the challenge of "The word rapture doesn't appear in the Bible..." many years ago and I responded with the passage from the Vulgate that Sam has shared. This of course doesn't tell us what that "rapture" is in the detail that many people require- but the word is there.

I would challenge some points in the post above by my friend. There are of course different editions of the Vulgate but they all stem from the original prepared by Jerome of Jerusalem in the late 4th through the early 5th centuries AD. Whatever opinions you may have about the "Catholic Churches' (misuse of) power" a couple of points should be considered:

1) The institution known as The Roman Catholic Church didn't even exist at the time the Vulgate was first translated. Most Christians of the day would have told you that the Eastern Bishops (Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, etc) had more influence over the church than the bishop of Rome.

2) Jerome himself was perhaps one of the greatest linguists not only of his time, but perhaps among the greats of all time. What the man accomplished with pen and paper in the midst of such upheaval is remarkable. We may rightly quarrel with his theology, antisemitism and other points of his life; but as a master of languages- he was truly a master.

3) The Vulgate was used by the King James translators as a sort of "cross check" to see how their Greek -> English and Hebrew -> English work compared with related languages like Latin. In this they were following Wyclif and the Geneva Bible translators.

The Vulgate is actually a very good translation- if you happen to speak Latin.

The terrible abuses that would occur (some would say still occur) in the RCC really were a product of later years. And to be fair to any RCC lurker, yes the "persecutors" were often later denounced by the RCC and many times it was a secular power that was using the church's offices to accomplish their own ends. Also, like in the modern priest abuse scandal; the victims themselves were often Roman Catholics.

[mfblume]

Pelathais,
I think someone just saw the word "Latin" and ran with it.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

T
...
Sam is correct. "RAPIEMUR" is lation for "caught up." The english word RAPTURE is taken from the Latin. In the original Greek the word used for what we know in the King James version as "caught up" is "Harpazo". This word means a sudden and physical withdrawl. A snatching away in essence. The Catholics wanted a version of the Bible in the common language of the time around 350 A.D. They translated the original word "Harpazo" into "Rapiemur". This is where the word "Rapture" comes from. In Latin "Rapiemur" means the same thing as "Harpazo". A sudden and physical withdrawl. A snatching away in essence. When the King James version appeared the word "Rapiemur" was changed to "Caught Up". In between the Latin Vulgate and the King James versions other Bible versions also used the word "Rapture".

Isn't our English word "harpoon" derived from "harpazo"?

Originally Posted by Sam

This is the closest thing I can find to the word "rapture" in our New Testament. See verse 17 below:

13 nolumus autem vos ignorare fratres de dormientibus ut non contristemini sicut et ceteri qui spem non habent
14 si enim credimus quod Iesus mortuus est et resurrexit ita et Deus eos qui dormierunt per Iesum adducet cum eo
15 hoc enim vobis dicimus in verbo Domini quia nos qui vivimus qui residui sumus in adventum Domini non praeveniemus eos qui dormierunt
16 quoniam ipse Dominus in iussu et in voce archangeli et in tuba Dei descendet de caelo et mortui qui in Christo sunt resurgent primi
17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul RAPIEMUR cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus
18 itaque consolamini invicem in verbis istis

1 Thess 4:13-18 from The Latin Vulgate

Can we say, "Glutaeus Maximus", (not that I'm calling you one, I'm just trying to impress you all with my Latin. Or is it Igpay atinlay. Why are you all asleep (10pm pst) when I get on this contraption on the west coast (L.A.)? This is the way I "Carpe Deim", how do you?

[TRFrance]

If I may just add a few more words to the conversation...
Wikipedia has a pretty succinct breakdown of the word:

"Rapture", when used in eschatological terms, is an English word used in place of the Latin word raeptius; taken from the Vulgate, which in turn is a translation of the Koine Greek word harpazo, which is found in the Greek New Testament manuscripts of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

In many modern English translations of the Bible, harpazo is translated; "caught up", or "taken away".

"Harpazo" \har-pad'-zo\ Koine Greek; "forcibly snatched away", "taken for oneself".

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sam

Isn't our English word "harpoon" derived from "harpazo"?

Origin: 1590–1600; < D harpoen ≪ OF harpon a clasp, brooch, equiv. to harp- (< L harpé < Gk: hook) + -on dim. suffix