Communism vs Christianity

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84

that is what it turned into, that wasn't what was attempted at happening...

What they attempted to do was create a socialistic state... It didn't work, but the ideals are still the ame...

Yes, there are bad things about communism, but the fact is it was just people trying to have the same exact ideals that Jesus espoused (taht being socialistic ones)...

Stop listening to the lame propoganda that all communism/socialism is bad... It isn't... Its just people trying to reach an ideal where everyone has all thier needs met and no one is in poverty... did it work? No... But that's because they didn't FOLLOW THROUGH on waht the initial plan was, not because the initial plan was flawed...

Communism doesn't work because it is based on a flawed premise: That men are inherently good. A premise that a guy like you should theoretically disagree with. Marx's plan calls for a gradual procession from the dictatorship of the proletariat to pure communism. The Soviets never got beyond a socialist dictatorial oligarchy because (surprise, surprise) the leaders were corrupt and reserved privelige and extras unto themselves.

Communism didn't work for the early church either. It is not truly known what was tried in Jerusalem. It may have just been extreme generosity, but it is unlikely that they lived in a commune. They sold their extraneous possessions, but probably not their homes and beds. It simply isn't known exactly what they did. Whatever they did, no effort was made to duplicate it in other cities.

Communism didn't work for the pilgrims.

Communism and socialism are simply the shiny hollow apple that is used to win the approval of the masses for some other form of government.

[Sister Alvear]

The Voice of the Martyrs should be read by all...

Originally Posted by Ferd

one more point. ALL communism/socialism is not only bad but anti-thetical and evil and distructive to both humanity and to the spiritual health of mankind.

Tell that to the original church... who shared everything among them...

And Paul didn't take up a collection for the Jerusalem church to help them in thier poverty after the Jerusalem council... Its actually thought of by more scholars as a pay-off to allow him to preach that the gentiles don't have to follow the law...

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

redeemedcynic84 has some real problems that need to be dealt with...
Anyone that has half a brain and any knowledge at all of communism KNOWS it is one of the world´s most cruel systems.
I Personally have listened to hours personal testimonies of people that were years in communist prisions and their only crime was being a christian.

you are, again, mixing up the way it happened with the idea behind it...

Jesus was a communist, but if he were to enact communism, he wouldn't do it the way Russia or others did it....

You are taking out the execution on the ideal rather than the ones who executed it badly...

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

Communism doesn't work because it is based on a flawed premise: That men are inherently good. A premise that a guy like you should theoretically disagree with. Marx's plan calls for a gradual procession from the dictatorship of the proletariat to pure communism. The Soviets never got beyond a socialist dictatorial oligarchy because (surprise, surprise) the leaders were corrupt and reserved privelige and extras unto themselves.

Communism didn't work for the early church either. It is not truly known what was tried in Jerusalem. It may have just been extreme generosity, but it is unlikely that they lived in a commune. They sold their extraneous possessions, but probably not their homes and beds. It simply isn't known exactly what they did. Whatever they did, no effort was made to duplicate it in other cities.

Communism didn't work for the pilgrims.

Communism and socialism are simply the shiny hollow apple that is used to win the approval of the masses for some other form of government.

the point ist hat the early church (and Christ himself) held and preached the same ideals that communism/socialism is founded on...

No, it can't be done by fallen humans, it will never work here, but to say communism is evil or the antithesis of Christianity is absurd and requires ignoring a large portion of the Bible...

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84

the point ist hat the early church (and Christ himself) held and preached the same ideals that communism/socialism is founded on...

No, it can't be done by fallen humans, it will never work here, but to say communism is evil or the antithesis of Christianity is absurd and requires ignoring a large portion of the Bible...

So you're wanting us to believe that Jesus taught something....in all of His Wisdom, something that was unobtainable.

Jesus taught that giving was something you do according to your heart and ability...voluntarily.

This is NOT socialism nor communism....this is Christian charity.

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

The Voice of the Martyrs should be read by all...

I'll look it up, I'm still trying to get through The Martyrs Mirror.

Nice Thread BTW, I had this debate with my mother after someone convinced her that Jesus was a socialist. I fixed that, point by point, fairly easily.

Originally Posted by Theophilus

So you're wanting us to believe that Jesus taught something....in all of His Wisdom, something that was unobtainable.

Jesus taught that giving was something you do according to your heart and ability...voluntarily.

This is NOT socialism nor communism....this is Christian charity.

he taught to "go and sin no more" and that's not possible...

He taught all kinds of things that were ideals but weren't 100% attainable... That's the point of ideals...

[Sister Alvear]

When 34-year old Jiang Zongziu and her mother-in-law went to their neighboring market in Guizhou Province, China; Jiang took this as an opportunity to hand out Bibles and Christian literature. Only this day they had an encounter with the Chinese police.
The two Christian women were handcuffed together and brought to the police station. They were interrogated throughout the evening. The next morning they were sentenced by the Public Security Bureau (PSB) to 15 days incarceration for “suspected spreading of rumor and disturbing the social order.”
Jiang and her mother-in-law knew the risk of spreading Christian literature in communist China. Both had been active in their church for more than 10 years and dared to go forth. Even when they were arrested, interrogated and sentenced to serve 15 days, they were willing to accept the consequences of their actions-all from a government that claims to have “freedom of religion.”
But it was not enough for the PSB to arrest and beat these two Christian women for the crime of passing our Christian literature. The following afternoon Mrs. Jiang Zongziu was pronounced dead by the PSB office of Tongzi County. They claimed she died of “natural causes.” The fact is she was beaten to death.
The Voice of the Martyrs has received video testimony from the surviving family, photos of Jiang body showing her bruised body, and a copy of the actual arrest document. All of this had to be smuggled out of China as the authorities continue to attempt to hide their systematic persecution of Christians.
Much of the world would like you to believe Christians are no longer persecuted. Sister Jiang's family would disagree.

[Sister Alvear]

One beautiful Sunday morning--it was on this date, February 29, 1948--pastor Richard Wurmbrand of Rumania set out on foot for church. He never arrived. For eight and one half years his wife and son did not know where he was or even whether he was alive or dead. "Ex-prisoners" assured Sabrina Wurmbrand they had witnessed her husband's funeral in a Communist prison. Sabrina was heartbroken and yet she had her doubts. The men might be government stooges.

Wurmbrand's disappearance was expected. Anyone who acted contrary to the regime could expect imprisonment or death. At a "Congress of Cults" held by the Communist government, he had asked for it. Religious leaders stepped forward to swear loyalty to the new regime. Sabrina asked Richard to "wipe the shame from the face of Jesus." Richard replied that if he stepped forward, she would no longer have a husband. "I don't need a coward for a husband," she answered. And so Richard stepped forward and told the 4,000 delegates that their duty as Christians was to glorify God and Christ alone.

He returned home to pastor an underground church and promote the gospel among Rumania's Russian invaders. He smuggled Bibles into Russia, disguised as Communist propaganda. And then he disappeared.

What had actually happened? As Richard walked to Church, a van full of secret police stopped in front of him. Four men jumped out and hustled him inside. He was taken to their headquarters and later locked in a solitary cell where he was designated Prisoner Number 1.

His years of imprisonment consisted of a ceaseless round of torture and brainwashing. For seventeen hours a day, repetitious phrases were dinned into his ears: Communism is good. Christianity is stupid! Give up. Give up! Over the years, his body was carved in a dozen places and burned. "I prefer not to speak about those [tortures] through which I have passed. When I do, I cannot sleep at night. It is too painful." His jailers also broke many of his bones, including four vertebrae. Miraculously, he survived. Other martyrs did not.

Eight and one half years later, in 1956, Wurmbrand was released. Sabrina herself was brutalized for three years in prison. The Wurmbrand's nine- year-old son Mihai was orphaned during this time. Released, the Wurmbrands immediately recommenced secret church work. Wurmbrand was returned to prison, not released again until 1964.

In 1965, Western churches ransomed Wurmbrand from Rumania for $10,000. Richard and Sabrina immediately spoke out for those still suffering in Communist hands. Wurmbrand was asked to testify before the US Senate. He displayed eighteen holes cut in his body. Afterward, he was invited to speak before hundreds of groups. By 1967, "Prisoner Number 1" had incorporated the mission organization that is now known as Voice of the Martyrs, dedicated to assisting those who suffer for Christ throughout the world.

Richard and Sabina were able to survive their ordeal through the power of love. "If the heart is cleansed by the love of Jesus Christ," wrote Wurmbrand, "and if the heart loves him, you can resist all tortures. What would a loving bride not do for a loving bridegroom? What would a loving mother not do for her child? If you love Christ as Mary did, who had Christ as a baby in her arms, if you love Jesus as a bride loves her bridegroom, then you can resist such tortures. God will judge us not according to how much we endured, but how much we could love. I am a witness for the Christians in communist prisons that they could love. They could love God and men."

Bibliography:

Wurmbrand, Richard. Tortured for Christ. Middlebury, Indiana: Living Sacrifice Books, 1976.