Is the Father the Son?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

No, it was your question. It's like me asking you why you believe in three gods knowing that you don't. You said "Oneness say Jesus is the Father" then you said the converse of that is, "is the Father the Son?".

You say you used to be Oneness, then you should know that OPs do NOT equate Father with Son.

So then your question might be more along the lines of explaining that.

From my perspective when OPs say "Jesus is the Father" they mean the "person" who is the Son is also the person that is the Father. The DISTINTION that exists between Father and Son is not one of Hypostasis, but rather of nature and existentially. HOW the Son exists is different than the Father because of the Human nature. HOW the Son thinks is different because of the human nature (mind, will, psyche)

In other words they would say Jesus (the person) is both Father and Son in two distinct modes of being or manifestations or forms or whatever term one uses.

When they say "Jesus is the Father" they are NOT saying "The son is the Father"...and as I said you were once oneness so you should know that (in fact from all the dialog at CARM and other places you should know that)...

So the question is a little confusing and perhaps needs to be rephrased that's all.

The question was written in the simplest way possible.

Here is the question again.. pay close attention to what I asked:

According to the Oneness doctrine Jesus is the Father. Is this true in reverse? Is the Father also the Son?

Please noticed that I worded it....according to the Oneness doctrine Jesus is the Father.

Jesus is the Son of God. Do you agree or disagree?

If Jesus is the Son, and you also claim that He is the Father, then is the Father the Son? Very simple and straight forward question.

[Kansas Preacher]

Originally Posted by Believer

If the Father isn't the Son, then you have two "persons." You have the Father and the Son, and neither is the other.

You're right, my spirit is not my flesh, but my spirit and my flesh is one person...ME.

That's my point -- while there is a difference between the Father (Divinity) and the Son (Humanity), together there is still only ONE PERSON.

A "Spirit" is not a person. The Father is not a person.

The Father (Divinity) indwelt the Son (Humanity), making one person -- "God was IN Christ, reconciling the world to HIMSELF."

Originally Posted by Kansas Preacher

That's my point -- while there is a difference between the Father (Divinity) and the Son (Humanity), together there is still only ONE PERSON.

If the Father is NOT the Son, then the Father is not the same Person as the Son. The Son prays, eats, sleeps, laughs, talks. If this isn't the Father, then you have more than one "person." And, according to John, the Word (who is God) became flesh, He didn't simply indwell the flesh.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Please notice it doesn't say the Word indwelled, but actually became flesh and dwelt among us.

Originally Posted by Kansas Preacher

A "Spirit" is not a person. The Father is not a person.

The Father (Divinity) indwelt the Son (Humanity), making one person -- "God was IN Christ, reconciling the world to HIMSELF."

What we mean when we say "person"

What are the qualities and attributes of being a person?

A person exists and has identity.
A person is aware of his own existence and identity.
This precludes the condition of being unconscious.
A self aware person will use such a statement as "I am", "me", "mine", etc.
A person can recognize the existence of other persons.
This is true provided there were other persons around him or her.
Such recognition would include the use of such statements as "you are", "you", "yours", etc.
A person possesses a will.
A will is the capability of conscious choice, decision, intention, desire, and or purpose.
A single person cannot have two separate and distinct wills at the same time on the exact same subject.
Regarding the exact same subject, a person can desire/will one thing at one moment and another at a different moment.
Separate and simultaneous wills imply separate and simultaneous persons.
A person has the ability to communicate -- under normal conditions.
Persons do not need to have bodies.
God the Father possesses personhood without a body, as do the angels.
Biblically speaking, upon death we are "absent from the body and home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8).
God qualifies as having personhood in that He exists, is self aware, has identity, uses terms such as "Me", "I AM", "My", and possesses a will.
The question now becomes whether or not there is more than one "person" in the Godhead.

http://www.carm.org/oneness/3persons.htm

Originally Posted by Kansas Preacher

That's my point -- while there is a difference between the Father (Divinity) and the Son (Humanity), together there is still only ONE PERSON.

A "Spirit" is not a person. The Father is not a person.

The Father (Divinity) indwelt the Son (Humanity), making one person -- "God was IN Christ, reconciling the world to HIMSELF."

But your flesh doesn't LOVE your spirit and talk to it. You flesh never tells your spirit to glory it with the glory it had with it before the world was. Basically your flesh and your spirit don't have a loving relationship with each other. And your spirit never sent your flesh into the world!

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Believer

But your flesh doesn't LOVE your spirit and talk to it. You flesh never tells your spirit to glory it with the glory it had with it before the world was. Basically your flesh and your spirit don't have a loving relationship with each other. And your spirit never sent your flesh into the world!

You are appealing to a conversation that took place between "father and son" while the incarnate Christ walked on the earth. There is no evidence scripturally that after the ascention, that any further conversation takes place. If you have conversation between two distince "persons" in heaven, then you effective have two Gods... and then if there are conversations between three persons.... then there are three Gods.

By the way, the doctrine of the trinity suggest that the "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all coeterna, coequal, and coexistant persons"...

If the "son" is equal with the father, then why did the son say "my father is greater than I"? Were they coequal, or was one indeed greater than the other?

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Believer

If the Father is NOT the Son, then the Father is not the same Person as the Son. The Son prays, eats, sleeps, laughs, talks. If this isn't the Father, then you have more than one "person." And, according to John, the Word (who is God) became flesh, He didn't simply indwell the flesh.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Please notice it doesn't say the Word indwelled, but actually became flesh and dwelt among us.




What we mean when we say "person"

What are the qualities and attributes of being a person?

A person exists and has identity.
A person is aware of his own existence and identity.
This precludes the condition of being unconscious.
A self aware person will use such a statement as "I am", "me", "mine", etc.
A person can recognize the existence of other persons.
This is true provided there were other persons around him or her.
Such recognition would include the use of such statements as "you are", "you", "yours", etc.
A person possesses a will.
A will is the capability of conscious choice, decision, intention, desire, and or purpose.
A single person cannot have two separate and distinct wills at the same time on the exact same subject.
Regarding the exact same subject, a person can desire/will one thing at one moment and another at a different moment.
Separate and simultaneous wills imply separate and simultaneous persons.
A person has the ability to communicate -- under normal conditions.
Persons do not need to have bodies.
God the Father possesses personhood without a body, as do the angels.
Biblically speaking, upon death we are "absent from the body and home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8).
God qualifies as having personhood in that He exists, is self aware, has identity, uses terms such as "Me", "I AM", "My", and possesses a will.
The question now becomes whether or not there is more than one "person" in the Godhead.

http://www.carm.org/oneness/3persons.htm

If a "person" has a unique "identiy", as you suggest here, then there are three unique identies in heaven. This equates to three individuals... tritheism.

[Felicity]

Jesus said,

"I and My Father are One."

Simple as that. Isn't it?

Originally Posted by Felicity

Jesus said,

"I and My Father are One."

Simple as that. Isn't it?

One what? The word used here is not masculine, its neuter. So Jesus isn’t saying one person. If Jesus wanted to say one Person, he would have used the word heis, which is masculine.

RWP: Joh 10:30 -
One (hen). Neuter, not masculine (heis). Not one person (cf. heis in Gal_3:28), but one essence or nature.

Gill: Joh 10:30 - I and my Father are one. Not in person, for the Father must be a distinct person from the Son, and the Son a distinct person from the Father; and which is further manifest, from the use of the verb plural, "I and my Father", εσμεν, "we are one"; that is, in nature and essence,

Barnes: Joh 10:30 -
I and my Father are one - The word translated “one” is not in the masculine, but in the neuter gender. It expresses union, but not the precise nature of the union.

VWS: Joh 10:30 -
One (ἕν)
The neuter, not the masculine εἶς, one person. It implies unity of essence, not merely of will or of power.

Originally Posted by BobDylan

If a "person" has a unique "identiy", as you suggest here, then there are three unique identies in heaven. This equates to three individuals... tritheism.

Strawman alert!!!

[Scott Hutchinson]

Same God ,different manifestation.I understand there is but one God ,but God is plural in attributes not in being.