Ancient Monarchians and Trinitarians

[Hesetmefree238]

Originally Posted by Believer

Ignatius: Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end revealed...He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotton Son, and remains the same forever. (Ignatius, letter to the Magnesians, 6, in ANF, vol 1)

Oneness do not believe that the Son was with the Father before time began, Ignatius did as well as all the other Early church Fathers

In oneness theology God existed throughout eternity as one being, not two,
and not three. The Bible says that Jesus was the begotten Son. As a man,
Jesus was begotten and born in Bethlehem. As God he has existed throughout
eternity.
Jesus existed with the Father as the eternal Word, which is an inseperable
part of God, not as a second person who existed with the Father throughout
eternity. Before the birth of Christ, the Son existed only in the mind of God and in the foreknowledge of God. When Christ was born the incarnation took
place. God came to us in the form of a man. Not God the Son incarnating into
a man, but Yahweh God, our everlasting Father. As Isaiah 9:6 says"Unto us a
child is born (begotten), unto us a Son is given, ...... and His name shall be
called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, THE EVERLASTING FATHER,
The Prince of Peace.
As for the writing of those whom we call the Early Church Fathers, it does
not really matter what they say, for their writings are not scripture or
divinely inspired. We also know they have been tampered with throughout
the centuries. Even Trinitarian theologians will acknowledge such.
As for Ignatius, it is thought by most theologians that his writings had a
modalist tone to them. He most certainly wrote in terms that Trinitarian
writers such as Tertullian would be most uncomfortable with.
Ignatius Epistle to the Ephesians 7. "There is one Physician who is
possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; Go existing in
flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then
impassible - even Jesus Christ our Lord. Tertullian later ridiculed the modalists
for this very teaching.

[Hesetmefree238]

Originally Posted by Believer

Monarchianism is a Christian heretical doctrine of the 2nd and 3rd centuries opposed to the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity; it strongly maintained the essential unity of the Deity and was intended to reinforce monotheism in Christianity. Monarchians were divided into two groups, the Adoptionists, or Dynamic Monarchians, and the Patripassians, or Modalistic Monarchians.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/monarchi.htm

Orthodox according to who, the Roman Catholic Church or the Council of
Nicea? It is certainly not orthodox according the the Bible, the only writings that really matter in the big scheme of things.
Again, trinitarianism makes up the majority of the church world, so since they are the majority they have the power to define the rules. But, the majority is not always right, and I am not one to condemn or judge trinitarianism it
simply is not a Biblical concept.

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

In oneness theology God existed throughout eternity as one being, not two,
and not three. The Bible says that Jesus was the begotten Son. As a man,
Jesus was begotten and born in Bethlehem. As God he has existed throughout
eternity.

Sir, You're using the 20th century meaning of begotten. The Greek meaning of this word is entirely something else. In the Greek the word is monogenes and is derived from mono meaning "alone," or "one of a kind' and genos meaning "class," or "kind. Hence, ho monogenes huios simply means the "one and only Son." Or as the NIV says, "unique Son".

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

Jesus existed with the Father as the eternal Word, which is an inseperable
part of God, not as a second person who existed with the Father throughout
eternity. Before the birth of Christ, the Son existed only in the mind of God and in the foreknowledge of God. When Christ was born the incarnation took
place. God came to us in the form of a man. Not God the Son incarnating into
a man, but Yahweh God, our everlasting Father. As Isaiah 9:6 says"Unto us a
child is born (begotten), unto us a Son is given, ...... and His name shall be
called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, THE EVERLASTING FATHER,
The Prince of Peace.

Not according to the bible. Not only was the Word with God, but was God. There isn't anywhere in the Bible that states that the Son existed in the mind of God. I realize you might have been taught that, but that simple isn't true. And with all due and respect, using Isa 9:6 only hurts your doctrine, unless you believe that the Father is the Son.

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

As for the writing of those whom we call the Early Church Fathers, it does
not really matter what they say, for their writings are not scripture or
divinely inspired. We also know they have been tampered with throughout
the centuries. Even Trinitarian theologians will acknowledge such.
As for Ignatius, it is thought by most theologians that his writings had a
modalist tone to them. He most certainly wrote in terms that Trinitarian
writers such as Tertullian would be most uncomfortable with.
Ignatius Epistle to the Ephesians 7. "There is one Physician who is
possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; Go existing in
flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then
impassible - even Jesus Christ our Lord. Tertullian later ridiculed the modalists
for this very teaching.

The truth is my friend, the doctrine of Christ didn't stop with the Apostles. The truth was passed on through men that followed the Apostles, just like it is today. If you disagree with the teaching of these men who were disciples of the Apostles then there isn't much more I can say. Ignatius isn't the only church father, there are many.

The Epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 70)

And, further, my brethren if the Lord (Jesus) endured to suffer for our soul, he being the Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, 'Let Us make man in our image. and after our likeness,' understand how it was that he endured to suffer at the hand of men. (Eusebius, history of the Church 3.4)

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

Orthodox according to who, the Roman Catholic Church or the Council of
Nicea? It is certainly not orthodox according the the Bible, the only writings that really matter in the big scheme of things.
Again, trinitarianism makes up the majority of the church world, so since they are the majority they have the power to define the rules. But, the majority is not always right, and I am not one to condemn or judge trinitarianism it
simply is not a Biblical concept.

If the Trinity Church is not Biblical then where was God's true Church in history?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Believer

Ignatius: Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end revealed...He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotton Son, and remains the same forever. (Ignatius, letter to the Magnesians, 6, in ANF, vol 1)

Oneness do not believe that the Son was with the Father before time began, Ignatius did as well as all the other Early church Fathers

You've taken Ignatius out of context. I have no problem as a Oneness believer with what he said, unless he means the Son is ETERNALLY begotten.

The Son was in the plan of the Father before time and since God isn't subject to time constraints, the future is real to God. He can speak about things that will happen as though they already happened.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

You've taken Ignatius out of context. I have no problem as a Oneness believer with what he said, unless he means the Son is ETERNALLY begotten.

The Son was in the plan of the Father before time and since God isn't subject to time constraints, the future is real to God. He can speak about things that will happen as though they already happened.

Ignatius: Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end revealed...He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotton Son, and remains the same forever. (Ignatius, letter to the Magnesians, 6, in ANF, vol 1)

Its not taken out of context. The consensus with all the early church father is that Jesus Christ/Son/Word was with the Father. Not one has ever said (as far as I've read) that the Son was in the mind of God.

When Ignatius says being begotten, he is not speaking of the 21st century meaning of the beget.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Believer

Ignatius: Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end revealed...He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotton Son, and remains the same forever. (Ignatius, letter to the Magnesians, 6, in ANF, vol 1)

Its not taken out of context. The consensus with all the early church father is that Jesus Christ/Son/Word was with the Father. Not one has ever said (as far as I've read) that the Son was in the mind of God.

When Ignatius says being begotten, he is not speaking of the 21st century meaning of the beget.

To be clear, Ignatius did not say begotten. We'd need to look at the greek or latin of this (depending on which version).....also if it was monogenes and begotten is not the correct translation then we need to take a look at the rest of it

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Believer

If the Trinity Church is not Biblical then where was God's true Church in history?

It's hidden d/t persecution.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

It's hidden d/t persecution.

The "remnant every generation theory"... plausible ... yet wrought w/ heretics intertwined.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Believer

yes, but what did Noetus teach? Who did Noetus believe he was? Remember, this is the first known modalist and Praxeas was his student.

How can we know? We can only read his beliefs through the eyes of his enemies.