The House Church:

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Now... do please consider when you make such a statement the sheer number of religious organizations that are out there (many thousands) and how many of those got it right. (At least right enough to get someone saved)

So... taking a fair look at your statement I would have to say that centralized organizations have failed miserably and beyond all expression.

Well, yes, but I was talking about organizations that promote 3-step Acts 2:38

Org... no org... in a building church, house church, park church, sidewalk church.... any church. Balance is the need and the key. No church model needs it any more than another. They all need it. And with it... God can do great things.

I believe that house church can offer a great opportunity for those attending to see truth and let the word & the spirit lead them (which is some peoples greatest fear... that God be left alone leading someone without the proper man to help him along)

The biggest delay to that discovery of truth is that most will bring with them their preconceived ideas that their centralized org (talking about all orgs... thousands of them...) has worked so hard to program them with and will, therefore, resist truth outside their small doctrinal box.

Once they escape the packaged doctrine mentality they become more able to be led by the spirit & the word.

Or led to divine flesh, latter rain, etc., etc...

FIrst.... what is approbriation?

First . . . it was the WRONG WORD ! ! ! I was up past my bedtime, what can I say. I meant ..... opprobrium.

op·pro·bri·um [uh-proh-bree-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the disgrace or the reproach incurred by conduct considered outrageously shameful; infamy.

Second... I find that they are generally called letters. Pauls letter to the Ephesians... Pauls letters to the Corinthians.

Right. And when was the last time you wrote a letter that needed to be divided into chapters? The key notion is that they're L________O_______N_______G letters.

We do sometimes call them books but that is because of our reference to "books of the Bible" but it is somewhat a misnomer. The NT books are mostly letters.

L_____o_____n_____g letters.

I do not understand your point but I hope I have answered your "thought experiment".

Those "house churches" that Paul had planted 15 to 30 years prior were dallying with such a variety of mistaken and twisted notions that a simple "STOP IT!" would have been insufficient.

Oh it is a good enough site to get wrapped up in if one wants to get wrapped up in something.

My observation has been that getting 'unwrapped' usually takes banishment.

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

I'm not sure how you meant "democratic republic"... A democratic and a republic form of government are 2 different forms of government. They are not interchangeable.

A democratic form of government is preferred to tyranny or communism etc but a republic (which we used to have) is far and above preferred to a democracy and if one is going to have secular government then there is, in my opinion of course, there is no better form of government to have than that of a republic.

See 'up past my bedtime,' above . . .

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

Well, yes, but I was talking about organizations that promote 3-step Acts 2:38

Or led to divine flesh, latter rain, etc., etc...

First . . . it was the WRONG WORD ! ! ! I was up past my bedtime, what can I say. I meant ..... opprobrium.

op·pro·bri·um [uh-proh-bree-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the disgrace or the reproach incurred by conduct considered outrageously shameful; infamy.

Right. And when was the last time you wrote a letter that needed to be divided into chapters? The key notion is that they're L________O_______N_______G letters.

L_____o_____n_____g letters.

Those "house churches" that Paul had planted 15 to 30 years prior were dallying with such a variety of mistaken and twisted notions that a simple "STOP IT!" would have been insufficient.

My observation has been that getting 'unwrapped' usually takes banishment.



See 'up past my bedtime,' above . . .

You do realize that most heresies in church history came out of the institutional church and most of the revialist movements came out of house churches.

I think you made a nice stab at this, but way off.

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by keith4him

You do realize that most heresies in church history came out of the institutional church and most of the revialist movements came out of house churches.

I think you made a nice stab at this, but way off.

You caught me!

I'm only resisting house church theology because I'm scared I'd have to clean my house!!!!!!!!!


I take it that you believe there is error being taught at the major UPC bible schools sufficient to warrant shutting them down?

Then it would be every man for himself.

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

You caught me!

I'm only resisting house church theology because I'm scared I'd have to clean my house!!!!!!!!!


I take it that you believe there is error being taught at the major UPC bible schools sufficient to warrant shutting them down?

Then it would be every man for himself.

No I think Bible Colleges can take care of themselves, but it was a fallacy to avoid or advocate small groups/cell/house churches because they become the breeding ground for error, when the exact opposite is true. THey have preserved the fruit of renewal over the centuries when the instiutional/visible church went lock stock and barrel into heresy and false doctrine.

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by keith4him

No I think Bible Colleges can take care of themselves, but it was a fallacy to avoid or advocate small groups/cell/house churches because they become the breeding ground for error, when the exact opposite is true. THey have preserved the fruit of renewal over the centuries when the instiutional/visible church went lock stock and barrel into heresy and false doctrine.

I definitely see your point. I suppose I had a set of blinders on and was focusing on the Branch Davidians, the Jim Jones cult, and some independent Apostolics I have known that turned into scoundrels when they backslid right behind the pulpit.

Another key point is that the times I have been directed by God to give people money, either directly or anonymously through the church, I felt such joy and satisfaction in the Holy Ghost. I don't normally get that as I figure up various percentages and drop it in the plate. If I were involved in a house church, I would know with certainty that my giving was making a difference.

Then there is the whole notion of churches taking on debt. I'm not sure that's a proper practice.


By the way, thanks for sharing your "Corinthian" thread. Now I know what to do if anybody calls me a Corinthian, an Ionian, a Laodicean, or a Thessalonian: I'll say, "No I'm not! I'm an Abyssinian!"

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

I definitely see your point. I suppose I had a set of blinders on and was focusing on the Branch Davidians, the Jim Jones cult, and some independent Apostolics I have known that turned into scoundrels when they backslid right behind the pulpit.

Another key point is that the times I have been directed by God to give people money, either directly or anonymously through the church, I felt such joy and satisfaction in the Holy Ghost. I don't normally get that as I figure up various percentages and drop it in the plate. If I were involved in a house church, I would know with certainty that my giving was making a difference.

Then there is the whole notion of churches taking on debt. I'm not sure that's a proper practice.


By the way, thanks for sharing your "Corinthian" thread. Now I know what to do if anybody calls me a Corinthian, an Ionian, a Laodicean, or a Thessalonian: I'll say, "No I'm not! I'm an Abyssinian!"

Actually it didn't bother me as much as I thought it was humorous. I guess as long as I don't come behind in no gift, I count myself to be in good company.

I think with as much as 50-80% of most church budgets going for the up keep of buildings, I do think it is something to think about.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by keith4him

Actually it didn't bother me as much as I thought it was humorous. I guess as long as I don't come behind in no gift, I count myself to be in good company.

I think with as much as 50-80% of most church budgets going for the up keep of buildings, I do think it is something to think about.

My wife was talking to me the other day and she, bless her heart, said that she thought I would be a good pastor. We are looking into starting a new house work here in our town and I am in contact with another work the next town over.

Anyway... she said... what would be the problem, if you were to get a good house church going, with renting a place or looking for a building to buy etc... just don't get real expensive.

While I appreciated her kind words I told her... it is just the nature of the beast. No matter how grand my intentions might be... once I rent or buy that building and I have rent, lights, water etc needing to be paid then the first time the money that comes in doesn't meet the bills I will have to press for money.

This is not even taking into account what we could have done to minister to the needs of each individual in the group... but there is just no escaping it. The model will take you there. No matter how pure the heart and how grand the intentions.

This is not an indictment of anyone who currently is involved with the popular church model of today... I was just saying this as an answer as to why it just cannot be the direction I take in my ministry.

[mfblume]

We have to have money to run a church. However, we really do have to remember that we cannot pressure the people to give "of necessity".

2Co 9:7 KJV Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Mention the need, yes. But we cannot push. That is how we are operating now in our new work.

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by keith4him

I think with as much as 50-80% of most church budgets going for the up keep of buildings, I do think it is something to think about.

Yup. And take a look at the ministry team: 1 guy is doing the "outreach" ministry, and 4 or 5 are doing the "inreach"














(Maybe Dominic Benincasa will soften up on me if I tell him I only carry a gun to defend myself against Pentecostal ushers)

Originally Posted by keith4him

Can't agrue with the gist of your posting, house churches are the biblical model, but sadly it will be slow to catch on here, to use a Wolfgang Simson analogy. It is like someone has been making Xerox copies and no body never questioned to see if the original copy is the right one.

The current, pastor, building centered ministry with a de-mobilized laity that meets for special services was the model they told me to run with out of Bible College, but as I go older I questioned it effectiveness.

Pastor-limits saints ministry and makes them passive with three goals, pray, pay and obey.

Building Centered-leads to the idea that much of what God does only happens within the four walls of a designated building which limits God doing anything or very little outside of that model.

Special Structured Services-prohibits the I Cor. 14:26 type of ministry from happening.

But alas, after reading this it only makes me depressed, longing so much to see this reality, but seems so far away, a pipe dream.

Don't be depress. Make them understand.

If the people know the "Law of God" they will not be confused today. The law is not been abolished. Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus did not destroy the law.

The law from the old testament. The Levitical Priest their "duty" is to feed those people ....chosen gates. Noticed chosen gates. Who made that decisions? God has to choose the place. Why? Because for his "Sacred Name" This is why now...we can understand the 12 gates called... 12 tribes, called... 12 nations, called....12 rods each tribes ....remember only ONE Chosen "Rod" in order to rule that "ONE Nation" That is the "Rod of Aaron"

How do we know the Rod of Aaron that is chosen. Because God is given the sign ...what kind of sign? Aaron's rod budded like the book of Hebrew describe and also, was place in the Ark of the Covenant.

Jesus fulfill the law did not destroyed the law. How?

Since God Himself gave the "Rod of Authority" to the Levi called Aaron's rod. God has to sealed it. This is why the 144,000 children of Israel are sealed why? Because they are the "witnesses God's work" They are the only one who can tell about God who performed all the Miracles that impossible for men to do.

Where is the last chosen place? Jesus gave the last chosen place in Jerusalem. Why? Because the apostles has wait there. Why? God has to give the free gift of the Holy Ghost. Why? Because God will place the rod of the authority inside their hearts.

This is why Jesus did not come out the lineage of Levi. Why? Because if Jesus come out Levi....God will "violate His own word" God Himself gave the rod of authority to the Levitical Priest.

This is why Jesus come out of lineage of Judah...... Called the ORDER OF MELCHISEDEC "NOT" THE ORDER OF AARON.

Now, we can understand this verse saying.......
Hebrews 7:11
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Now, we can understand the gates been place to our hearts by Jesus Christ. Because if...we still under the Levitical Priest(they can only offer it to those chosen place by God- Remember ...if God did not choose the place the rule is....they are not allowed to offered it). We will not able to distribute the word of God in every places. Only for the chosen place.

THE APOSTLE TEACHING FROM HOUSE TO HOUSE.

THE TRUE CHURCH IS YOU! NOT MADE HAND OR BUILDING.

2 Cor. 5:1 (KJV)
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Hebrews 9:11 (KJV)
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;