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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #11  
Old 07-29-2007, 04:00 PM
Hesetmefree238 Hesetmefree238 is offline
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Absolutely Yes. I believe the Bible is very clear on this.
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  #12  
Old 08-03-2007, 12:48 AM
jwharv jwharv is offline
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Okay Second Question with another to come later.........

If a Christian has died and their organs were donated and ended up in several other people, what would happen when the Christians body was resurrected? Who would the organ "belong" to? Or would the organs not be part of the "Physical resurrection"?
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  #13  
Old 08-12-2007, 06:29 PM
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1 Cor 15:42-44- So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
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  #14  
Old 08-13-2007, 01:04 AM
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Absolutely yes! 1 Cor 15 says that the body of Christ was visibly resurrected, and so will our's, those who are Christ's, at His coming! -- In one moment of time all together!

To say otherwise is to change the definition of resurrection from a physical one regarding Christ at the start of 1 Cor 15 to a non-physical one regarding us later on in the same chapter. And we cannot change definitions of a term partway through a chapter.

The spiritual body of resurrection is what Jesus had when he resurrected. And something spiritual is still physical. It's not spiritual as opposed to physical, but spiritual as opposed to NATURAL that is the actual contrast. Similarly the spiritual mind and the natural mind is not a contrast of physical versus non-physical.

And if our organs were donated to another after our deaths, so what? We will not live by natural means. Christ's blood was drained, as much as organs may be absent from our bodies, but Christ still lived by a newness of Life! So if Christ's spiritual body did not require natural blood, why would we require natural organs? lol
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  #15  
Old 08-14-2007, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Absolutely yes!
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1 Cor 15 says that the body of Christ was visibly resurrected, and so will our's, those who are Christ's, at His coming! -- In one moment of time all together!

To say otherwise is to change the definition of resurrection from a physical one regarding Christ at the start of 1 Cor 15 to a non-physical one regarding us later on in the same chapter. And we cannot change definitions of a term partway through a chapter.
The spiritual body of resurrection is what Jesus had when he resurrected. And something spiritual is still physical. It's not spiritual as opposed to physical, but spiritual as opposed to NATURAL that is the actual contrast. Similarly the spiritual mind and the natural mind is not a contrast of physical versus non-physical.

And if our organs were donated to another after our deaths, so what? We will not live by natural means. Christ's blood was drained, as much as organs may be absent from our bodies, but Christ still lived by a newness of Life! So if Christ's spiritual body did not require natural blood, why would we require natural organs? lol


Perhaps Christ was the Firstfruit..one of a kind..a showcase..a wave offering?

John saw this body Jesus had after His ressurection...yet we read in 1 John 3:2..it has not yet been revealed..what we shall be...but John was a witness of that body Jesus had..yet he wrote..It HAS NOT been revealed!!!!


15:44- It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

46- Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual
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  #16  
Old 08-15-2007, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jwharv View Post
Nope not my next question............

I will post it later.....................

However, your post made me think of something. I knew some folks whose pastor told them it was a sin to be cremated and they could go to hell if they were because they wouldn't be resurrected. His reasoning was they would no longer have a body to resurrect........

This is why cultures such as Judaism reject both autopsies and embalming. This is done due to them believing that tampering with a dead physical body will later cause damage to the resurrected physical body.

This is silly. Think about it; how many people die from bodily injury every year? So if these people die in a car accident, are they then resurrected as a mangled eternal mess? I do not see this at all in the Bible.
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  #17  
Old 08-17-2007, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ApostolicTexas View Post
Perhaps Christ was the Firstfruit..one of a kind..a showcase..a wave offering?
I long considered that thought, but realized the element called the "firstfruits" was not a contrast of visible versus invisible offerings, but rather one simply occurring before the first. The firstfruits was identical as the rest of the harvest. It cannot be anything like one of a kind. It was actuallY FIRST OF MANY MORE. It was simply taken BEFORE the rest. And the order of TIME is the ONLY point mentioned in the context to exemplify what FIRSTFRUITS means:

Quote:
1Co 15:20-23 KJV But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Notice that the terms are "AFTERWARD" and "IN HIS OWN ORDER". It is an order of time. FIRST and then SECOND. BEFORE and then LATER. Nothing more. It is not visible and then invisible. If it was visible versus invisible, as though our bodies shall NOT experience what his body did (that is, change from mortal to immortal), then we would instead read:

"But every man in visibility or invisibilty: Christ the firstfruits, and those that are Christ's at His coming." But the all-important word used in the text is AFTERWARD, which qualifies what "IN HIS OWN ORDER" means, and removes any thought for any othe explanation. It is simply a contrast of TIMES when the resurrections would occur -- FIRST Christ, and then AFTERWARD those who are His at His coming. FIRST in FIRSTFRUITS is simply FIRST!!

To say that the wave offering was showcased while the rest was not does not say anything about whether or not our resurrection will be physical or not. In fact it is saying the opposite. The fristfruit harvest was identical in grain matter as the remainder. The ONLY difference was that the firstfruits was harvested FIRST BEFORE the rest, as a special offering to God.

Christ's resurrection was physical, and so shall our's be, as much as the firstfruits of the grain was identical in composition and nature as the remainder of the harvest.

To say that Christ's firstfruit resurrection IS NOT the same nature and characteristics of the resurrection to occur after His, is to actually destroy the entire purpose of the term FIRSTFRUITS. A harvest cannot be firstfruits unless it is identical to the remainder of the harvest. Otherwise, there is no relation or connection of the firstfruits to the rest, as though the firstfruits is an entirely different sort of "grain". Something that is the firstfruits of the wheat harvest must be as genuinely true wheat as the rest of the harvest before and after. Otherwise it has no association to the harvest and, therefore, cannot be the "FIRSTFRUITS OF" the harvest.

Quote:
John saw this body Jesus had after His ressurection...yet we read in 1 John 3:2..it has not yet been revealed..what we shall be...but John was a witness of that body Jesus had..yet he wrote..It HAS NOT been revealed!!!!
Such reasoning fails in light of Phil 3:21:

Phi 3:21 KJV Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

The same thing that happened to Jesus' body shall occur with our own. This is not speaking of the BODY in a spiritual sense as the church is His body. The church IS NOT VILE. BODY is speaking about the physical body of flesh. The Church already has everything that is Christ, and had it since its inception in Acts 2. But our physical bodies have not yet changed as His did, and are stil considered VILE due to the sin that ever indwells our flesh until this change occurs.

1 John 3:2 is speaking of our personal EXPERIENCE when we are changed to become like He has been since resurrection. It is one thing to SEE someone risen from the dead, as they did with Christ 2000 years ago. But the difference is that the NEXT TIME we see Him, PHYSICALLY I MIGHT ADD, WE WILL CHANGE and have an experience that will let us know what it is like.

What Christ is like cannot be fully grapsed by LOOKING AT HIM. It must be experienced in us before we can know what it is like. Since his is firstfruits, that means we shall experience the SAME CHANGE. This has not yet occurred.

The first time they saw Him risen from the dead did not see a change occur in the onlookers. But this will occur when He returns, for we shall experience it ourselves, and experiencing something is TRULY learning what He is. We become what He is as well!

We do not know what all it is that we shall experience until it actually happens and we are changed in body as He was.

Quote:
15:44- It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

46- Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual
The same IT that is sown is the IT that is raised. If you are correct and our physical bodies remain in the ground, and something else rises out, we cannot accept the verses above, because they distinctly say the same IT that is sown is also raised. Something else is not raised. But yet when we read it is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual one, we understand that in the process of rising IT IS CHANGED IN FORM. There is no CHANGE unless the same body that is sown ALTERS and turns from natural to spiritual.

Jesus had a SPIRITUAL BODY when He raised from the dead. It was no longer natural because it retained wounds that formerly KILLED IT.

It's so simple if we simply read the context of FIRSTFRUITS and note the TIME elements mentioned, that alone reveal the reason for the use of the term "FIRSTFRUITS".
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  #18  
Old 08-17-2007, 06:56 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Originally Posted by Lost and Found View Post
This is why cultures such as Judaism reject both autopsies and embalming. This is done due to them believing that tampering with a dead physical body will later cause damage to the resurrected physical body.

This is silly. Think about it; how many people die from bodily injury every year? So if these people die in a car accident, are they then resurrected as a mangled eternal mess? I do not see this at all in the Bible.
Amen, it is indeed silly.
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  #19  
Old 08-19-2007, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I long considered that thought, but realized the element called the "firstfruits" was not a contrast of visible versus invisible offerings, but rather one simply occurring before the first. The firstfruits was identical as the rest of the harvest. It cannot be anything like one of a kind. It was actuallY FIRST OF MANY MORE. It was simply taken BEFORE the rest. And the order of TIME is the ONLY point mentioned in the context to exemplify what FIRSTFRUITS means:



Notice that the terms are "AFTERWARD" and "IN HIS OWN ORDER". It is an order of time. FIRST and then SECOND. BEFORE and then LATER. Nothing more. It is not visible and then invisible. If it was visible versus invisible, as though our bodies shall NOT experience what his body did (that is, change from mortal to immortal), then we would instead read:

"But every man in visibility or invisibilty: Christ the firstfruits, and those that are Christ's at His coming." But the all-important word used in the text is AFTERWARD, which qualifies what "IN HIS OWN ORDER" means, and removes any thought for any othe explanation. It is simply a contrast of TIMES when the resurrections would occur -- FIRST Christ, and then AFTERWARD those who are His at His coming. FIRST in FIRSTFRUITS is simply FIRST!!

To say that the wave offering was showcased while the rest was not does not say anything about whether or not our resurrection will be physical or not. In fact it is saying the opposite. The fristfruit harvest was identical in grain matter as the remainder. The ONLY difference was that the firstfruits was harvested FIRST BEFORE the rest, as a special offering to God.

Christ's resurrection was physical, and so shall our's be, as much as the firstfruits of the grain was identical in composition and nature as the remainder of the harvest.

To say that Christ's firstfruit resurrection IS NOT the same nature and characteristics of the resurrection to occur after His, is to actually destroy the entire purpose of the term FIRSTFRUITS. A harvest cannot be firstfruits unless it is identical to the remainder of the harvest. Otherwise, there is no relation or connection of the firstfruits to the rest, as though the firstfruits is an entirely different sort of "grain". Something that is the firstfruits of the wheat harvest must be as genuinely true wheat as the rest of the harvest before and after. Otherwise it has no association to the harvest and, therefore, cannot be the "FIRSTFRUITS OF" the harvest.



Such reasoning fails in light of Phil 3:21:

Phi 3:21 KJV Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

The same thing that happened to Jesus' body shall occur with our own. This is not speaking of the BODY in a spiritual sense as the church is His body. The church IS NOT VILE. BODY is speaking about the physical body of flesh. The Church already has everything that is Christ, and had it since its inception in Acts 2. But our physical bodies have not yet changed as His did, and are stil considered VILE due to the sin that ever indwells our flesh until this change occurs.

1 John 3:2 is speaking of our personal EXPERIENCE when we are changed to become like He has been since resurrection. It is one thing to SEE someone risen from the dead, as they did with Christ 2000 years ago. But the difference is that the NEXT TIME we see Him, PHYSICALLY I MIGHT ADD, WE WILL CHANGE and have an experience that will let us know what it is like.

What Christ is like cannot be fully grapsed by LOOKING AT HIM. It must be experienced in us before we can know what it is like. Since his is firstfruits, that means we shall experience the SAME CHANGE. This has not yet occurred.

The first time they saw Him risen from the dead did not see a change occur in the onlookers. But this will occur when He returns, for we shall experience it ourselves, and experiencing something is TRULY learning what He is. We become what He is as well!

We do not know what all it is that we shall experience until it actually happens and we are changed in body as He was.



The same IT that is sown is the IT that is raised. If you are correct and our physical bodies remain in the ground, and something else rises out, we cannot accept the verses above, because they distinctly say the same IT that is sown is also raised. Something else is not raised. But yet when we read it is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual one, we understand that in the process of rising IT IS CHANGED IN FORM. There is no CHANGE unless the same body that is sown ALTERS and turns from natural to spiritual.

Quote:
Jesus had a SPIRITUAL BODY when He raised from the dead. It was no longer natural because it retained wounds that formerly KILLED IT.
It's so simple if we simply read the context of FIRSTFRUITS and note the TIME elements mentioned, that alone reveal the reason for the use of the term "FIRSTFRUITS".
No doubt Jesus had a SPIRITUAL BODY with the wounds still visible..but I would have to agree with John as in 1 John 3:2


Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John saw Jesus for 40 days..He had a very good look at what He saw..Yet he states in his epistle..It has not been revealed what we shall be..for we shall see him as He is...evidently..As he is....was not what He saw post ressurection..
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  #20  
Old 08-20-2007, 05:24 PM
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No doubt Jesus had a SPIRITUAL BODY with the wounds still visible..but I would have to agree with John as in 1 John 3:2
I agree with John as well. John said we cannot know the experience of being like Him until we see him. John's words are not the problem. It's one's interpretation of his words that can be the problem.

Quote:
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John saw Jesus for 40 days..He had a very good look at what He saw..Yet he states in his epistle..It has not been revealed what we shall be..
Of course! Nobody's bodies were changed into the same body Christ had when He arose. So nobody could know what it is really like.

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for we shall see him as He is...evidently..As he is....was not what He saw post ressurection..
I wholeheartedly disagree. He was as He now is. Where does the bible say anything changed since His resurrection?
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