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  #11  
Old 12-18-2019, 08:06 PM
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Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post


I've just never heard anyone say anything about why we see our bodies restored to immortal physical life, and have never heard you address this..

So, are you saying that after the resurrection, we do not stay in heaven but come to earth and continue as Ada was meant to continue on the earth, as I do? You said something about the PERSON dies, not just the body. So, do you mean the SOUL dies at death to not exist, let alone depart the body and go to heaven?
My understanding is the Lord returns to earth and church is resurrected. I never read where we then go to heaven. Although I assume it's possible for folks to go visit there, heaven isn't our predestined home, earth is, and always was.

I mean "the soul" is the person, a uniting a flesh and spirit. At death the person is dead. Or, you could say the soul has died. Dead people in scripture are sometimes called dead souls. I would hesitate to say "not exist", because to me that implies annihilation which occurs at the judgment of the wicked. The dead do not exist as conscious living persons, but they do exist to God. For "all live unto Him, He is not the God of the dead but of the living" - which was said by Christ in reference to the resurrection, not an intermediate state.

You ask about how the personality continues. Technically, it doesn't continue as a self existing thing in the intermediate state, because the individual person is dead. In the resurrection, you will be the same person, albeit resurrected. There may be some changes to your personality (mportant experiences usually produce changes to personality) but not to the extent you won't be the same person.

I used to say "God keeps you in His memory banks so when you resurrect it's really you and not another" (using a weak Star Trek transporter analogy). But I am tending nowadays to ask "what determines the individual person-ness of a person? Why are we not all clones of each other?"

We all have our own unique genetic database or DNA ingredients. We can clearly see numerous mental traits are inherited (as studies of twins separated at birth have shown), yet even identical twins are still different from one another in some (or many ways). Our experiences shape who we are as well. God's interventions do so as well (eg. Bezaleel Ex 36:2). It may also be that each person's spirit is not just a generic "human spirit", but an individualised spirit "custom made by God" for each person. But observation proves that personality operates within the brain (a physical organ of the body) so is clearly connected to the flesh.

So when the body is raised miraculously by the power of God, as the spirit and flesh reunite, it seems obvious to me the personhood will return to life as a matter of course. Ordinary death does not obliterate the person into nonexistence. That is the role and purpose of the SECOND death.



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How can the soul SLEEP, if the spirit leaves the body to see the soul non-existent, if you are saying it is non-existent? I need more clarity from you on that.
Sleep is a metaphor. The PERSON is said to be asleep, because physical death is only a temporary cessation of life, like sleep is a temporary cessation of wakefulness. "Soul sleep" isn't a Bible term, although it expresses a Bible concept (like Oneness, baptismal regeneration (rightly explained), soteriology, theology, church service, debt-free, etc etc). The Bible does say the dead are "asleep" or that they "sleep", and identifies the soul not simply as a mere component of a person, but as the person themself. Phrases like "your soul" are equivalent to "your life, your self" etc.
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  #12  
Old 12-18-2019, 08:21 PM
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Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?

That really clarifies your thoughts for me. Thanks.
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  #13  
Old 12-18-2019, 08:26 PM
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Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?

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That really clarifies your thoughts for me. Thanks.
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  #14  
Old 12-20-2019, 06:47 AM
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Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?

Try this again with rebuttal:

When Jesus Christ has the last enemy death beneath His feet, by the power of God the Father, an actual conquest of death will have taken place. Those who insist the physical body will never resurrect actually deny the fact that death will be defeated.

If death causes something to become dead, the only way to defeat death is to take that which died and give it life a second time. This is the criterion for experiencing resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

And we can readily understand this when we stop and consider that defeat of death is undoing what death has accomplished. If a spiritual body is an invisible body that rises up out of the dead physical body, we must ask ourselves when the spiritual body died before God resurrected it. If it had not experienced a previous death, then the rising up of a spiritual body out of the physical body is not a resurrection at all. Death was not defeated in having such an event take place.

Death must have taken the life of something for God to conquer death by making that something come to life a second time. Death is not defeated if that which it killed remains dead, and something else rises in its place. Death would have then accomplished what it could and nothing undid its work. Where is the victory there?

When a person dies, the spirit and soul do not die. The spirit was made alive and born again when new birth occurred. Jesus said we are not born of the flesh a second time when we are born again. We are born of the Spirit. That which is born of the Spirit is the human spirit.

Nothing in the Bible speaks of the soul of a believer dying or ceasing a conscious existence when death sees the body expire. In fact, Paul stated that our bodies are tabernacles, or tents, made from the earth, indicating that the soul normally resides within the body, but can leave and continue to exist. We shall get a house made from heaven rather than this temporary tent. That means that our souls and spirits occupy our “tents”, for the time being.

Paul, then stated that he desired to be absent from the body and present with the Lord, rather than remain in the mortal body in which we groan, if he was left with one of those two choices. His greater desire was to see his spirit and soul clothed upon with a house from Heaven.

This, then, informs us that the soul and spirit of a person does not die, but the physical bodies dies. And, therefore, the physical body alone requires resurrection in order for death to be conquered, or else there is no victory over death.

There are also those who believe the spirit leaves the body and returns to God at death, leaving the body dead and the soul in almost a non-existent state. To these people, there is no experience of a departure of the soul from the body to go to Heaven. The person is simply dead and not conscious in any sense of the word.

They do not propose that the soul does not exist in this intermediate state, as such, seeing as that would imply annihilation. And they do not want to consider annihilation. The idea is that they exist as far as God is concerned, but not as conscious living persons.

Luke 20:37-38 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. (38) For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

The statement by Jesus, “For all live unto Him,” is thought by these people to mean that, although these souls are not conscious and dead, they are alive in God’s mind.

They acknowledge that personality does not continue, but the resurrection will cause everyone to be the same people once again, though somewhat changed due to the experience of resurrection. Ideas about all of this are involved, such as the brain containing personality. Resurrection of the body, therefore, somehow brings back the person. Also, perhaps the spirit of man contains individuality to lend the original personality to the individual.

To make the statement that Christ’s words, “for all live unto Him,” does not necessarily mean that the soul continues in a conscious or living state, is to claim that God somewhat “pretends” that they exist. This lessens what Jesus actually meant.

Jesus explained that Moses referred to God as the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He said that the reason for this statement was to indicate that God is a God of the living, not of the dead. It is then that Jesus said, “For all live unto Him.”
The natural reading of that passage would lead one to think that Jesus meant that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are all still alive. This tells us that they are dead to mankind, but not God.

For this reason, Paul made the statement that, upon death, he would depart from the body to be present with the Lord. The body remains among men, and is dead. However, the soul departs from the body in order to be with God so that it is alive to God, for it is then in His presence. The soul and body are not together to be with men in this world. In order to deny that this is a reality, the best that these people can do is to propose that Paul’s statement only expressed wishful thinking. They do not take that statement from Paul as if he proposed an actuality.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

There is no wishful thinking, as though Paul desired that a mythical experience of the soul being able to leave the body to be with Jesus was real, though in reality it was not. After having read of Paul’s desire to be absent from his body, why would we think that he meant it was not possible, unless we looked for that meaning? Clearly, Paul meant that he knew that he would be made absent from his body and present with Jesus one day, while he chose not to experience that for the moment. He felt that it was more profitable for others that he remained in his body and existing in this life. If there was any wishful thinking, it was not to experience a mythical opportunity to depart from his body to be with Jesus, but to be able to die at that moment, rather than at a future time.

Paul said that he was always confident. He said that the reason for this was his knowledge that his state of being home in the body meant that he was absent from the Lord. He fully believed in immortality and a continuation of his existence with the Lord in the future. He said that he held this confidence because he walked by faith and not by sight. Although he noted that he would rather be absent from the body and be present with the Lord, he remained confident and able to bear whatever he might face in this life, and not be shaken by it.

was confident of a certain fact. He was also willing to be absent from his body and be present with the Lord , we are meant to understand that the possibility of the soul leaving the body to be with the Lord is not a mythical experience. He did not mean that he was confident that this was a true experience. He simply referred to something that he knew was true, and indicated that he maintained his confidence in his faith toward God despite all the pressures that he faced. Because he knew immortality was his in the future, he remained strong in his faith. This is the reason that the next verse stated that he was confident because he walked by faith and not by sight.

2 Corinthians 5:6-7 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight
Paul simply knew that absence from the body was an experience he would one day know.
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  #15  
Old 12-27-2019, 05:33 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?

I was listening to this podcast before work this morning. Didn't have time to finish it.
https://reknew.org/2019/12/what-is-the-soul-podcast/

My personal view is that the "inner man" lives on after death departing from this physical house of clay and goes on to be with the Lord. The "inner man" is the soul/spirit.
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  #16  
Old 12-27-2019, 05:53 PM
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Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?

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Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
I was listening to this podcast before work this morning. Didn't have time to finish it.
https://reknew.org/2019/12/what-is-the-soul-podcast/

My personal view is that the "inner man" lives on after death departing from this physical house of clay and goes on to be with the Lord. The "inner man" is the soul/spirit.


What are your thoughts about the resurrection?
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  #17  
Old 12-28-2019, 05:59 AM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post


What are your thoughts about the resurrection?
The just and the unjust are resurrected and judged. At this current time I believe both with be given eternal bodies like Jesus has had since his resurrection in which our soul/spirits will be housed forever.

So I guess resurrection will be the start of our eternal life in New Jerusalem. We will no longer be in that intermediate state which comes after death in which our souls/spirits exist "unhoused".
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His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear

Last edited by mizpeh; 12-28-2019 at 06:10 AM.
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  #18  
Old 12-28-2019, 08:21 AM
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Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?

there is no point in having a disembodied spirit roaming around waiting to be reunited with a resurrected body. That makes the person immortal, the bible says God only is immortal at this point.

Quote:
1 Timothy 6:16 16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
when saints are resurrected to life, they will put on immortality

Quote:
Corinthians 15:53-54.
For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.

Last edited by Amanah; 12-28-2019 at 08:25 AM.
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  #19  
Old 12-28-2019, 04:01 PM
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Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?

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Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
there is no point in having a disembodied spirit roaming around waiting to be reunited with a resurrected body. That makes the person immortal, the bible says God only is immortal at this point.



when saints are resurrected to life, they will put on immortality

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  #20  
Old 12-28-2019, 04:03 PM
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Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?

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Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
The just and the unjust are resurrected and judged. At this current time I believe both with be given eternal bodies like Jesus has had since his resurrection in which our soul/spirits will be housed forever.

So I guess resurrection will be the start of our eternal life in New Jerusalem. We will no longer be in that intermediate state which comes after death in which our souls/spirits exist "unhoused".
So you believe both the just and the unjust will have eternal life, immortality, etc?
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