Video: Soul Sleep Mortal To Immortal

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

1. Many verses say the soul can die or does die.

Here is a sample.

Joshua 10:28

28And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jericho.

Joshua 10:29

29Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah: 30And the LORD delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho.

Joshua 10:30

31And Joshua passed from Libnah, and all Israel with him, unto Lachish, and encamped against it, and fought against it: 32And the LORD delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, which took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein, according to all that he had done to Libnah.

James the brother of Jesus taught souls can die.

19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

2. The soul is basically the person.

Gen 2:7

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God made a form in his own image but out of the dust. It must have been like a earthly statue. It had no life. Then YAH breathed into his nostrils and he came alive.

So Gods breath (spirit in Hebrew) went into the nose of man. That brought man alive. The combination of mans body and Gods breath (spirit) connecting created a "soul". Verse 7 says a "living soul".

No Bible verse uses the phrase "immortal soul".

Job 27:2-3

2As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul;
3All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Note Job's breath is the spirit of God IN HIS NOSTRILS.

In the Bible when men "gave up the ghost" it meant the breath God gave them was leaving them. When we no longer breathe we die.

Job 34:14-15

14If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The process of how we get life is reversed when we lose life. The breath God gives us goes out and we die. The MAN dies. The soul is the combination of flesh and Gods breath or "spirit of life".

Note that its not just the righteous whose spirit goes back to God who gave it but all men. So when a man dies nothing about him is still alive.

Psalms 146:3-4

3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.



3. The souls in the vision are part of a vision. There are no immortal souls alive in Heaven.

Remember Paul taught Timothy,

JESUS ONLY HAS IMMORTALITY. 1 Tim 6:16

4. When Moses and Elijah were with Jesus on the mount Matthew explained what was happening.

9And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

YAH granted a message to Jesus through a vision of Moses and Elijah. Neither of them were still alive.

can you explain
John 11:26 ....shall never die...in what way will someone never die?
John 3:15,16 ....should not perish.... in what way will someone not perish?
1 Corinthians 15:17-18...lets us know those that are asleep in Christ have not perished...

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

can you explain
John 11:26 ....shall never die...in what way will someone never die?
John 3:15,16 ....should not perish.... in what way will someone not perish?
1 Corinthians 15:17-18...lets us know those that are asleep in Christ have not perished...

John 11:26

Perhaps reading the verse before this one would answer your first 2 questions.

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Tho he were dead...yet shall he live. Because of Jesus power to raise the dead.

If the dead never die and are always alive why would Jesus ever have needed to raise anyone? Why would there ever need to be a resurrection if no one ever dies?

As to this.

17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Paul is teaching the resurrection of THE DEAD this entire chapter. Have you noticed in all 58 verses in this chapter teaching the GOSPEL, it so happens there is not ONE MENTION of anyone dying and being immediately in Heaven.

If our immortal soul never dying was true
THAT
would be the (good news) gospel. But Paul never mentions such a thing in the entire chapter.

And verse 18 which you commented on pertains to the fact if Christ was not himself raised from the dead then all those who are asleep in Jesus are perished.

Not that their souls are alive and just their bodies would be perished. THEY THEMSELVES would be perished because the only hope they have is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD to wake them up.

[Apostolic1ness]

I think we all agree that the flesh will die. no debate on that
The question I have is does the soul die or spirit of the person die.

Do you believe that a person has a soul that is separate from their body?

If no then I understand your premise.

If yes then where are the souls of the dead?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

I think we all agree that the flesh will die. no debate on that
The question I have is does the soul die or spirit of the person die.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Do you believe that a person has a soul that is separate from their body?

Pro 19:15 Slothfulness casteth into a deep sleep; and an idle soul shall suffer hunger.

Lev_5:2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.

Lev_7:20 But the soul that eateth of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, that pertain unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

Lev_7:27 Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

Lev_22:6 The soul which hath touched any such shall be unclean until even, and shall not eat of the holy things, unless he wash his flesh with water.

Num_11:6 But now our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes.

Psa 7:1 O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me:
Psa 7:2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver.

Psa 7:5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

If yes then where are the souls of the dead?

Psa 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
Psa 49:13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah.
Psa 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Psa 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.



Pro 19:15 Slothfulness casteth into a deep sleep; and an idle soul shall suffer hunger.
is this speaking of a soul as an individual or as the spirit of a man, can a soul as in the spirit of man suffer hunger? this scripture is talking about slothfulness in someones life.

(Lev_5:2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty. )

again this is speaking of a soul as the person the touch and unclean thing. not the soul as in spirit. can your soul touch a carcase?

(Lev_7:20 But the soul that eateth of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, that pertain unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, even that soul shall be cut off from his people. )

again its speaking of the person. can your soul eat flesh?

Lev_7:27 Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

Lev_22:6 The soul which hath touched any such shall be unclean until even, and shall not eat of the holy things, unless he wash his flesh with water.

Num_11:6 But now our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes.

Psa 7:1 O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me:
Psa 7:2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver.

Psa 7:5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

All of the above speaks about the being the person. not in inward soul. "if there is such a thing"




Psa 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
Psa 49:13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah.
Psa 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

is this what Steven was saying when he was killed?

Psa 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
this is not telling us that the soul just dies but God can deliver from the grave.

Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

so is this saying that a person has a soul other than his body?

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

is this saying that all souls go to hell or is it saying Christ became sin for us and went to hell and conquered it?
is there a judgment after death for the soul either heaven or hell?

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

dust returns to the earth but the spirit to God who gave it.

so you guys cant answer the questions

does a human have a spiritual soul?
if so where does the soul go when a person dies
it appears that you both believe there is no spiritual soul is that the case?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

dust returns to the earth but the spirit to God who gave it.

so you guys cant answer the questions

does a human have a spiritual soul?
if so where does the soul go when a person dies
it appears that you both believe there is no spiritual soul is that the case?

What would be required of us to prove we believe in souls? I put sufficient number of scriptures to prove both that souls exist and that they die.

Esaias published MAXIMUM amount of scripture to prove the same.

As to where they go it has also been shown but here is one verse that should be understandable.

Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

[TGBTG]

It seems that Esaias and MTD have a different definition of the term "soul" than Apostolic1ness.

What Esaias is calling soul, Apostolic is calling that the body.

Esaias is citing scriptures talking about the soul being hungry, tired, etc. The context of those scriptures imply that the term "soul" is not being regarded as a spiritual entity in those scriptures.

Maybe each providing their definition of soul would be a better starting point.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

dust returns to the earth but the spirit to God who gave it.

so you guys cant answer the questions

does a human have a spiritual soul?
if so where does the soul go when a person dies
it appears that you both believe there is no spiritual soul is that the case?

How about you answering a few questions?

Lets start here.

Paul writes the Romans 2:5-7

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life

If when we get saved we already have immortality and eternal life, why does Paul say that we are SEEKING immortality and eternal life? Why does he say God will give us these things in the day of his righteous judgment?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

It seems that Esaias and MTD have a different definition of the term "soul" than Apostolic1ness.

What Esaias is calling soul, Apostolic is calling that the body.

Esaias is citing scriptures talking about the soul being hungry, tired, etc. The context of those scriptures imply that the term "soul" is not being regarded as a spiritual entity in those scriptures.

Maybe each providing their definition of soul would be a better starting point.

I was trying to show that the word "soul" doesn't mean quite what most people these days thinks it means.

Biblically, the soul is the person, or the person's life, or the person's "inner man" ie psychological, emotional, intellectual condition, etc.

A man lost his life means what? Means he died. Ship sank, all soul's were lost means what? Everyone died.

The Bible teaches that humans are a body of flesh animated by spirit or breath of life producing a living soul. If the pagan doctrine of "immortal soul" is true, then RESURRECTION is superfluous, unneeded, and frankly undesirable. Which is why practically everybody is looking forward to "going to heaven when they die" INSTEAD of looking forward to the RESURRECTION, like Jesus and the apostles.

[JamesGlen]

Good stuff guys

What about the absent from the body is to be present w the Lord argument?