Before the beginning...what?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Bro Esaias, how did the demonic forces originate. All that God created is good, and yet we have snake in the garden tempting Eve.

Could the parable in Isaiah be a shadow of the fall of the angels before the garden?

I have no idea where demons come from, as the scriptures don't say anything about their origin, as far as I have found.

The parable in Isaiah is a parable/proverb concerning the king of Babylon. There is no reason to think it applies to someone whom the Bible does not say it applies to. "Lucifer" is the term used in the Latin translation for the Hebrew "hallal" (sp?) which was a title used by powerful kings. It means "bright one" and if I recall is actually a reference to Venus, the morning star. Hence the epithet "son of the morning". Lucifer is a Latin term meaning "bearer of light" or "bright one", and was also used by the Romans as a name for Venus (the planet).

The Latin also has Lucifer in Job 11:17, which in the KJV has morning.

So Lucifer was not a proper name for the devil until the middle ages. You can thank the Roman Catholic Church for that.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!



So you subscribe to a literal translation of the scriptures.
1) I believe that the spiritual realm is manifest in the natural realm; and the
natural realm attests to the reality of the spiritual realm. I don't see it as a
pagan thing: even pagans have some truth! Or why is the story of the flood
talked about in pagan circles? I mean, they also know history.

2) Our Lord spoke to his disciples in parables: oftentimes touching upon natural
truths. “He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know
the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever
hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever
hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to
them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not,
neither do they understand.”

It is given to the church to understand, perceive, and discern, that we may
rejoice in the truth to obey it. That we may SEE God's plan as it unfolded to
reveal the gospel that saves: that it might include all who believe and obey!

Brother Villa

We cannot insert into the Bible ideas not conveyed by the words of scripture. The words of the Bible are spiritual. Literal does not mean non-spiritual. Nor does spiritual mean non-literal.

I believe the words of God are the only, and final, authority for both faith and practice. If we can't go by the words of scripture, we have nothing to go by except opinion. May as well kiss the pope's ring at that point.

I take the Bible literally in the sense I accept what it says and don't go looking for doctrines that were never in it to begin with. If people hadn't already heard the story of Lucifer the archangel choir director in heaven attempting a coup back "in the beginning" they would never get that concept strictly from the Bible.

It comes from Enochite Judaism with its myths and fables of Samael the angel who rebelled against God with a cohort of angelic allies, eventually mating with women, prompting the Flood in Noah's day. And if you look closely at Babylonian and older Sumerian "Annunaki" myths you see where that idea originated - Chaldea/Shinar, likely as a pagan corruption of the history of Sethite intermarriage with others.

As for the non-Israelite Flood stories, I'm not sure what that has to do with Isaiah 14? But keep in mind Israel had an extensive maritime empire and had contact with lots of different people groups...

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Esaias

We cannot insert into the Bible ideas not conveyed by the words of scripture. The words of the Bible are
spiritual. Literal does not mean non-spiritual. Nor does spiritual mean non-literal.
I believe the words of God are the only, and final, authority for both faith and practice. If we can't go
by the words of scripture, we have nothing to go by except opinion. May as well kiss the pope's ring at
that point. I take the Bible literally in the sense I accept what it says and don't go looking for doctrines
that were never in it to begin with.

If people hadn't already heard the story of Lucifer the archangel choir director in heaven attempting a
coup back "in the beginning" they would never get that concept strictly from the Bible. It comes from
Enochite Judaism with its myths and fables of Samael the angel who rebelled against God with a cohort of
angelic allies, eventually mating with women, prompting the Flood in Noah's day. And if you look closely
at Babylonian and older Sumerian "Annunaki" myths you see where that idea originated - Chaldea/Shinar, likely
as a pagan corruption of the history of Sethite intermarriage with others. As for the non-Israelite Flood
stories, I'm not sure what that has to do with Isaiah 14? But keep in mind Israel had an extensive maritime
empire and had contact with lots of different people groups...

Now this:
"...thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon..." Do you
believe that a proverb is a fable invented by men? For what purpose? Is it to
enhance false doctrines? Do you that those peoples you mentioned inserted
their belief system into the scriptures? Would that not nullify the scriptures
from being the Word of God?

What about this word:
"These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when
I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the
Father."

Brother Villa

[peter83]

Ιsaiah listen to Isaiah
14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Lucifer= Greek Eos-foros (he that brings the light)
Hebrew = hê·lêl (the morning star)

Now for the rest what are you said you have right is a mythological title for pagan gods. But this was his position and he still believe that he brings the light to humans!
Even now days the Orthodox high-priest "brings the light" to Catholics every Easter (symbolically) form the grave of Christ.
The same old story...

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!




Now this:
"...thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon..." Do you
believe that a proverb is a fable invented by men? For what purpose? Is it to
enhance false doctrines? Do you that those peoples you mentioned inserted
their belief system into the scriptures? Would that not nullify the scriptures
from being the Word of God?

What about this word:
"These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when
I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the
Father."

Brother Villa

I am not sure what you are asking. I certainly don't believe that men invented a fable and inserted it into Isaiah.

Isaiah ch 14 is a divinely given proverb or parable that is explicitly directed against the king of Babylon. The term "lucifer" is a Latin term roughly (though not exactly) equivalent to helel (sp?), which is a title used by ANE kings.

The idea of Lucifer being an archangelic choir director etc etc is a myth found nowhere in the bible at all. The real Lucifer is the king of Babylon, who is long dead and buried in ignomity and failure.

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Esaias

I am not sure what you are asking. I certainly don't believe that men invented a fable and inserted
it into Isaiah. Isaiah ch 14 is a divinely given proverb or parable that is explicitly directed against the
king of Babylon. The term "lucifer" is a Latin term roughly (though not exactly) \equivalent to
helel (sp?), which is a title used by ANE kings.
The idea of Lucifer being an archangelic choir director etc etc is a myth found nowhere in the bible at all.
The real Lucifer is the king of Babylon, who is long dead and buried in ignomity and failure.

Beloved, I am not asking anything.

All I did was cite two scriptures: one in the OT, and one in the NT. As you have
seen, the prominent word (to me) in those verses is proverb. I did not insert
that word into the scriptures, but "...holy men of God spoke as they were
moved by the Holy Spirit." The Lord has NOT opened all the scriptures to
ALL men, and therefore men can only understand the scriptures within the
boundaries of their own limited understanding. I know you have heard this:
"Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE..."

I will cite this rule (in the study of scripture): "We live in two realms which
are the spiritual realm and the natural realm. The spiritual realm can manifest
itself in the natural realm; while the natural realm attests to the existence of
the spiritual realm." To point this out, one must only look at what is happening
in the natural realm: women aborting their children by the millions; and in the
spiritual realm, the church (signified as a bride) is being tempted to abort the
WORD, and many have succeeded by creating their own denominations!

"Except a man be begotten of God, he cannot see..."

Brother Villa

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!




Beloved, I am not asking anything.

All I did was cite two scriptures: one in the OT, and one in the NT. As you have
seen, the prominent word (to me) in those verses is proverb. I did not insert
that word into the scriptures, but "...holy men of God spoke as they were
moved by the Holy Spirit." The Lord has NOT opened all the scriptures to
ALL men, and therefore men can only understand the scriptures within the
boundaries of their own limited understanding. I know you have heard this:
"Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE..."

I will cite this rule (in the study of scripture): "We live in two realms which
are the spiritual realm and the natural realm. The spiritual realm can manifest
itself in the natural realm; while the natural realm attests to the existence of
the spiritual realm." To point this out, one must only look at what is happening
in the natural realm: women aborting their children by the millions; and in the
spiritual realm, the church (signified as a bride) is being tempted to abort the
WORD, and many have succeeded by creating their own denominations!

"Except a man be begotten of God, he cannot see..."

Brother Villa

Are you saying the king of Babylon is a type or representation of an evil non-human being named "Lucifer"? And that the things said of the king of Babylon are figures representing things concerning this Lucifer being? And that Isaiah chapter 14 is called a "proverb" because it is symbolic of that spiritual reality reflected by the king of Babylon and the things said of him?

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Esaias

Are you saying the king of Babylon is a type or representation of an evil non-human being named "Lucifer"?
And that the things said of the king of Babylon are figures representing things concerning this Lucifer being?
And that Isaiah chapter 14 is called a "proverb" because it is symbolic of that spiritual reality reflected by
the king of Babylon and the things said of him?

Re: King of Babylon:
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art
thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
Was the King of Babylon ever in heaven?

And we mustn't forget Tyrus!
"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy
covering...Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:
thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in
the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day
that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee"
So was Tyrus really in Eden at the beginning, and did he really walk in the
midst of the stones of fire?

Brother Villa

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by thephnxman

EL-OHIM (GOD ALMIGHTY) Later called the “I AM”: the Eternal One (His NAME had not yet been revealed)
He is Love, and He needed to express His Love. He would later create man, to express His Love in him. Brother Villa

EL-OHIM: GOD ALMIGHTY
The ONE who has all Might and Power in Himself.“In the beginning, El-ohim,
the One who has all Might and Power, created the heavens and the earth.”
However, His NAME had not yet been revealed.

Ex. 3:13-14
“And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel,
and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you;and
they shall say to me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say unto them? And
God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shall thou say unto
the children of Israel, ‘I AM hath sent me unto you’.”
Nope: still no revelation of His NAME.

Exo. 3:14
El-ohim had described Himself as the Eternal One: the ONE who has existed and
will always exist. God could just as easily have described Himself just as WE
know Him: the One “…which is, and which was, and which is to come…”

Exo 6:2
”...but by my NAME Yah-weh was I not known to them.” The NAME by which it
pleased El-ohim to be known was now made manifest. It is the NAME by which
He PROMISED to bring salvation, healing, peace, deliverance, and make men
righteous, etc.; if the Israelites would obey Him. It's the NAME Yah-weh (it's
translated Je-hovah): Yah (the Savior) who WILL SAVE by Himself. The
promise to save is found in the words will save.

Now we all know that NAME by which El-ohim has fulfilled His Promise: “For all
the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen…”. It is the NAME which
Yah-weh commanded the angel to reveal to a young virgin girl: “…thou shalt call
his name Je-sus" (which is translated from Yah-shua): for he shall save
his people from their sins.”

Brother Villa

[Sean]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!



Re: King of Babylon:
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art
thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
Was the King of Babylon ever in heaven?

And we mustn't forget Tyrus!
"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy
covering...Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:
thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in
the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day
that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee"
So was Tyrus really in Eden at the beginning, and did he really walk in the
midst of the stones of fire?

Brother Villa

Good post.