Libertarian for universal healthcare!!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The ones at the linked article.

I usually don't read what Aquila has to say on political subjects unless I want to troll him for his socialism.

Honestly, few conservatives ever read anything that doesn't agree with them.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You are aware that there are predatory insurance firms that are essentially scams, right? You'd open the elderly to be scammed. The cost for what Medicare provides on the open market is far, far more expensive. Trust me, we're trying to manage the healthcare of my mother-in-law who is 79 years old. You'd essentially subject these people to a "buyer beware" insurance market wherein scams and rip-off artists abound. You'd allow them to take out what they have already paid into the system, weakening the Medicare system itself, and allow a number of them to be ripped off on the open market.

That's not acceptable. Why? Because after thousands of elderly are ripped off and left with plans that are merely "feel good papers" where will they turn to for help? The ERs. And most are on a fixed income and cannot afford massively expensive ER bills. Guess what, all that will be handed down to the consumer through even more inflated healthcare costs. Essentially, we'll have to pay for a number of people TWICE.

They've paid into the social promise of Medicare. Why not keep our social promise to them? Why compromise it for these rich fat cats that just want to rip them off?



Buying health insurance locally can be a challenge. Finding a firm that can actually deliver on what they promise can be difficult. Buying across state lines can be tricky because various states have various laws. What is legal in one state may not be legal in another. The way insurance is regulated in one state may not be the way it is regulated in another. This can cause significant confusion that results in inadequate coverage. It's not impossible to do, it's just very tricky. But if we expand this to "international" markets... you'll have an elderly couple taking out everything they paid into Medicare, shopping on the global market for a plan, and many will fall for the cheap plans that offer them the sun, moon, and stars with some grand HSA... the headquarters of the firm being some office in Nigeria. Then they will put all that money into that HSA. Then, when the company denies coverage or simply don't respond to coverage requests... where does that leave these elderly people? They will then try to use their HSA and discover, their money is gone.

Who would police the global insurance market? How is it insured? What legal recourse would an elder couple who was ripped off by some Nigerian "insurance firm" be able to recoup any losses after having purchased a worthless insurance plan or after having fallen for some insurance scam?

Why do you guys always side with the snake oil salesmen of the world?

If karma were real, y'all would have some real bad karma dude. Real bad karma.



It is... IF you can. If you can't, it means that you don't schedule regular physicals and that you hold back from seeing the doctor over what appear to be minor problems. However, it costs MORE long term because not having regular physicals, exams, and treatment for minor problems only increases the odds of not being able to detect and treat a more serious condition early enough. Now it will cost four times as much to treat. And for some, late discovery of a condition might result in death.

I know you're all conservative and stuff. I know that you think anything conservative is good and anything liberal is bad. But when it comes to healthcare, we liberals got this. You guys have the downright wackiest ideas that cater to rip-off artists, banks, and billionaires. You just can't see the practical side of the dangers the every day American will face under your ideas.

Frankly, I've not seen an intelligent idea regarding healthcare proposed from a conservative yet.

Oh, for crying out loud. He said give them the CHOICE. Is your reading comprehension that poor?

You talk about fraud and deception as if it never happens with government programs. Medicare/Medicaid fraud costs the US taxpayers millions upon millions of dollars every year.

Also, Medicare itself is a major scam. Not only does it force the elderly to visit only authorized doctors, but they're literally not permitted to pay for their own health care from an outside provider. So if Medicare doesn't provide the coverage they need or within the time frame they need, they're not allowed to deal with it out of pocket. How is that not predatory?

You need to take off your rose colored glasses and see government for what it is. The enemy of liberty, not its protector. WE THE PEOPLE are the protectors of liberty, government is just a necessary evil. And like with all necessary evils, the key is to keep it under control and not let it gain control over us.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Frankly, I've not seen an intelligent idea regarding healthcare proposed from a conservative yet.

That's because you're stuck in the mindset of a socialist. So far as you're concerned: government good, private sector bad.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Honestly, few conservatives ever read anything that doesn't agree with them.

Same could be said for liberals.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Honestly, few conservatives ever read anything that doesn't agree with them.

Trolled.

Hey, I powered-up with that one!!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jito463

Oh, for crying out loud. He said give them the CHOICE. Is your reading comprehension that poor?

Of course he wants them to have a choice, he supports the hucksters that will swindle them.

You talk about fraud and deception as if it never happens with government programs. Medicare/Medicaid fraud costs the US taxpayers millions upon millions of dollars every year.

I'm for cracking down on Medicare fraud.

Also, Medicare itself is a major scam. Not only does it force the elderly to visit only authorized doctors, but they're literally not permitted to pay for their own health care from an outside provider. So if Medicare doesn't provide the coverage they need or within the time frame they need, they're not allowed to deal with it out of pocket. How is that not predatory?

My mother-in-law is 79 and she has not had a problem with seeing the doctor of her choice. Nor has she had an issue with something Medicare wouldn't cover.

Oh, they can get an outside provider. But Medicare won't pay for it. But it is a matter of doctors choosing to participate. It isn't big bad Medicare who prevents them from seeing a given doctor. Mary has never had a problem with not having coverage or time frames. All of this is conflated mumbo jumbo. Most older folk in my neck of the woods would actually like to see Medicare better funded and expanded. They are mortified by Trump's position on cutting Medicare.

You need to take off your rose colored glasses and see government for what it is. The enemy of liberty, not its protector. WE THE PEOPLE are the protectors of liberty, government is just a necessary evil. And like with all necessary evils, the key is to keep it under control and not let it gain control over us.

LOL! You're so spoiled. Living in a nation that has been free and prosperous for a generation because of liberal policies... gonna turn around and curse the very principles that created the middle class. Does it make you feel tough? But here's the problem... if the government isn't there to ensure that regulations are in place to protect you're little anarchist self, you'll get pistol whipped and robbed by unchecked corporate powers... and you won't have a vote concerning what they choose to do to you, your wages, or society at large. A corporatocacy is even worse than a pure democracy.

The reason why conservatives want less government and regulation is the same reason that organized crime and thugs want fewer cops.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Of course he wants them to have a choice, he supports the hucksters that will swindle them.



I'm for cracking down on Medicare fraud.

And with that stupid comment, you expose your fraud of a belief system. You try to insult me by implying that I want people ripped off. Sorry, but not every free-market solution rips people off.

My mother-in-law is 79 and she has not had a problem with seeing the doctor of her choice. Nor has she had an issue with something Medicare wouldn't cover.

Oh, they can get an outside provider. But Medicare won't pay for it. But it is a matter of doctors choosing to participate. It isn't big bad Medicare who prevents them from seeing a given doctor. Mary has never had a problem with not having coverage or time frames. All of this is conflated mumbo jumbo. Most older folk in my neck of the woods would actually like to see Medicare better funded and expanded. They are mortified by Trump's position on cutting Medicare.



LOL! You're so spoiled. Living in a nation that has been free and prosperous for a generation because of liberal policies... gonna turn around and curse the very principles that created the middle class. Does it make you feel tough? But here's the problem... if the government isn't there to ensure that regulations are in place to protect you're little anarchist self, you'll get pistol whipped and robbed by unchecked corporate powers... and you won't have a vote concerning what they choose to do to you, your wages, or society at large. A corporatocacy is even worse than a pure democracy.

The reason why conservatives want less government and regulation is the same reason that organized crime and thugs want fewer cops.

Then again, you think liberalism has kept people free. What can we expect from someone so blinded?

Why did our Founders preach small government? Were they like organized crime as well? Please, leave our country. I have plenty of socialist friends oversees, but I don't want them living here and voting in our elections.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Then again, you think liberalism has kept people free. What can we expect from someone so blinded?

Why did our Founders preach small government? Were they like organized crime as well? Please, leave our country. I have plenty of socialist friends oversees, but I don't want them living here and voting in our elections.

There is a lot of myth about the Founding Fathers. Did you know that our Founding Fathers imposed rather strong laws upon corporations? In fact, these laws continued, and were added to for nearly the first 100 years of our Republic.

When American colonists declared independence from England in 1776, they also freed themselves from control by English corporations that extracted their wealth and dominated trade. After fighting a revolution to end this exploitation, our country’s founders retained a healthy fear of corporate power and wisely limited corporations exclusively to a business role. Corporations were forbidden from attempting to influence elections, public policy, and other realms of civic society.

Initially, the privilege of incorporation was granted selectively to enable activities that benefited the public, such as construction of roads or canals. Here's an example of the kinds of laws that were on the books:

◾Corporate charters (licenses to exist) were granted for a limited time and could be revoked promptly for violating laws.
◾Corporations could engage only in activities necessary to fulfill their chartered purpose.
◾Corporations could not own stock in other corporations nor own any property that was not essential to fulfilling their chartered purpose.
◾Corporations were often terminated if they exceeded their authority or caused public harm.
◾Owners and managers were responsible for criminal acts committed on the job.
◾Corporations could not make any political or charitable contributions nor spend money to influence law-making.

Individual states regulated corporations even further.

For 100 years after the American Revolution, legislators maintained tight controll of the corporate chartering process. Because of widespread public opposition, early legislators granted very few corporate charters, and only after debate. Citizens governed corporations by detailing operating conditions not just in charters but also in state constitutions and state laws. Incorporated businesses were prohibited from taking any action that legislators did not specifically allow.

If these very same laws were to be proposed today, after the establishment of Corporate Personhood (which is one of the worst rulings in American history), everyone would be accusing the those proposing such measures of being for big government. They'd be screaming against government regulation, growth of government power, and labeling people supporting the measures "Socialist". This libertarian myth about our Founding Fathers and our early history is nothing but that, a myth.

One of the most severe blows to government authority over corporations arose out of the 1886 Supreme Court case of Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad. Though the court did not make a ruling on the question of “corporate personhood,” thanks to misleading notes of a clerk, the decision subsequently was used as precedent to hold that a corporation was a “natural person.” This story was detailed in “The Theft of Human Rights,” a chapter in Thom Hartmann’s recommended book Unequal Protection.

From that point on, the 14th Amendment (enacted to protect rights of freed slaves) was used routinely to grant corporations constitutional “personhood.” Justices have since struck down hundreds of local, state and federal laws enacted to protect people from corporate harm based on this illegitimate premise. Armed with these “rights,” corporations increased control over resources, jobs, commerce, politicians, even judges and the law.

In actuality, those of us who are for limiting corporate power and regulating corporations are only following after the spirit of our Founding Fathers.

[aegsm76]

A - you and I agree on this one.
Granting corporations "personhood" has led us down a wrong path.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

A - you and I agree on this one.
Granting corporations "personhood" has led us down a wrong path.

Most of the Democrats I know are not against capitalism. They are against unregulated corporate power and the amassed power of capital over the system and the lives of individuals. Democrats that I roll with are pro-labor (meaning they believe in contractual obligations between organized labor and companies they work for). They are for lower taxes on small businesses and the middle class. Corporations like to whine and complain about the corporate tax rate being nearly 40%. However, what corporations don't tell you is that with all the tax shelters, deductions, and loopholes, most corporations don't pay over 14%. In fact, some corporations actually receive subsidies and special legislation that allows them to walk away on tax day having paid nothing and the government actually giving them money from the public trust.

Few Democrats have argued for actually increasing the corporate tax rate. What most Democrats have argued for is closing tax loopholes, ending unnecessary subsidies, repealing specialized legislation that benefits specific corporations, closing tax shelters, and measures that will ensure that corporations in fact pay their fair share in taxes.

Democrats are really not arguing for anything that isn't common sense. But corporations see those measures as "tax hikes". They then spread propaganda accusing Democrats of wanting to increase the tax rate. It's a clear distortion of the truth. Democrats want tighter regulations on corporate power, but to that they argue that Democrats are socialist and are trying to strangle capitalism and the free market. What they don't tell you is that as corporations merge and power is aggregated into the hands of a few corporate conglomerates, the market becomes their hostage. The truth is, it is corporations who are wanting to kill the free market. The market isn't free when corporate bodies write rules and lobby for legislation that favors them and gouges everyone else or stifles competition.

Democrats aren't against capitalism. They wish to preserve it and regulate the market to prevent abuses of the system.

My mother-in-law calls us regularly to come out and help her understand the complexities of her health insurance every time it changes. If you know older folk, all the options confuse and bewilder them. It is also very scary for them. The libertarian proposal listed above wants to give the public trust of Medicare over to private insurance companies (CEO's will claim a huge raise with that money, trust me) and then open the insurance market up to the international market. A market that isn't heavily regulated and wherein international insurance fraud and schemes abound. They then want people like my mother-in-law to shop among the thousands of options, combinations, and plans that are offered globally. I can see her having a stroke just trying read it all. Oh, and she isn't internet savvy. So, where does she go to get all the information she needs to make an informed decision? If she sees a combination of plans offered by a firms in countries ranging from Nigeria to India that appears to be all she ever wanted, how does she know these aren't scams that will rip her off and leave her without adequate coverage?

It's a game. By design it opens the door to frauds and scam artists. It subjects the elderly to these predators and it only increases the frustration of the process. And cost... the overhead for tracking and administering this stuff would increase costs significantly. It's snake oil.

What is needed is a basic comprehensive plan that covers all Americans provided by a fully funded Medicare system. Yes, it costs money. Yes it is expensive. And yes, maybe we'll have to be more selective with regards who we launch missiles at. But it can be done. America wasn't made great by the greatest generation by thinking small. We didn't put a man on the moon by thinking small.

But as it stands, we keep dissolving every big idea and program and substituting it with some flimsy "do-it-your-self" plan or curriculum that offers almost no results. We go from PPOs to a mish-mash patchwork of plans that are designed to TRY to cover all medical needs, but routinely deny coverage or don't cover what they were expected to cover. It's all being dissolved and the people selling the flimsy plans, curriculums, and cheap products are exploiting the system for a buck. We're falling so far behind the rest of the world in almost every area accept the number of citizens incarcerated, belief in Big Foot, and the belief in angels.

We can insure every American. We just need to dream big again... and dare to make it happen.