Riddle Me This-- St. John 17:5

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Will someone give me what would be the "right" Oneness Pentecostal interpretation for this scripture?

St. John 17:5
ESV

"And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."


I will be looking at your responses with my HYPER reading glasses to ensure that I understand exactly what is being said.

One verse I use that shows that just because the way it is written, to some, it appears to be a pre-existence, really is not, as we know, the Lamb really was not slain from the beginning.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Apparently, Jesus Christ was there from the begining with the Father as well. Doesn't He say so in this verse?

True Jesus is obviously referring to John 1:1-2.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

That seems to be what Jesus is talking about.

Now all we must find out is what is THE LOGOS/WORD.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Apparently, Jesus Christ was there from the begining with the Father as well. Doesn't He say so in this verse?

I don't think so.

We read in Romans 5 that he was to come. Adam was made in the figure of "Him that was to come," not "Him that already existed."

Romans 5:14 KJV Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

And that is the beginning, (Genesis)

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Before I forget, thank you for responding, Bro Blume.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Will someone give me what would be the "right" Oneness Pentecostal interpretation for this scripture?

St. John 17:5
ESV

"And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."


I will be looking at your responses with my HYPER reading glasses to ensure that I understand exactly what is being said.

Jesus is the Logos made flesh (human). God is invisible and transcendent of both time and space. God can only be known through the Logos which manifests His glory. Jesus desires to be glorified with the very same divine glory He possessed as the Logos before the world began, indeed the glory that emanated from Him before He became Human.

[Halieus]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Apparently, Jesus Christ was there from the begining with the Father as well. Doesn't He say so in this verse?

Just taking what Jesus says at face value here, yes, it does seem that he is implying that he was with the Father in heaven before becoming incarnate. The way you could confirm this in your own mind is to read the Gospel of John in one sitting at least through chapter 17. On the day following, read it again. Then read it again. Then read it again. Then read it again as many times as you can take it :-) and see if there are any other statements that Jesus makes leading up to this verse in John 17 that would make you think in v.5 that he is in fact saying he would be returning to the place of glory where he had actually been with the Father before the Father sent him from heaven to earth.

Or you could begin with chapter 6.22-62. Here Jesus declares that he is the Bread of Life who has come down from heaven. You'll note throughout this passage that he contrasts himself with the Father (e.g. v. 27) and several times says the Father gave him or (v. 32) sent him (v. 39) and that he has come down from heaven (v. 33).

Just taking Jesus at face value, he was in heaven with the Father before coming down to earth. He says he even saw the Father before the Father sent him (v. 46).

I think the critical verses to pay attention to are v. 38 and v. 62:

"38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

"62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?"

Note carefully what he says in v. 38. The image is of two in heaven both with the capability of willing something. Being the Son, he accepted the Father's will. The commissioning and yielding would have had to occur in heaven for Jesus to then say that he came down to do the Father's will.

In v. 62, he clearly says that he, the Son of Man, would ultimately go back to heaven where he had been before--not where he had been before "as God" but specifically as the Son.

Compare this with 13.3: "Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to God."

After dwelling on this for a while, you may want to reflect on John 16.16-30. What has struck me about this passage is Jesus begins by telling his disciples that he is intending to speak plainly about the Father using no figurative language (v. 25). Here's his plain speaking in vv. 28-30: "'I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.' 29 His disciples said to Him, 'See, now You are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech! 30 Now we are sure that You know all things, and have no need that anyone should question You. By this we believe that You came forth from God.'”

Jesus is speaking matter-of-factly, and so we are to take His words at face value. If we interpret Jesus’s words in any way but the most literal, matter-of-fact way, we directly go against how Jesus characterizes His own words here.

When I read all these passages at face value (and there is more in the rest of John that you will note yourself should you decide to read at least John 1-17 straight through in one sitting several times), I don't see how Jesus is not asserting that he did in fact exist with the Father before descending to earth and becoming incarnate and having done the Father's will he would go back to the Father in heaven.

Of course, right after chapter 16 where Jesus speaks plainly about coming from the Father and going back to the Father is the verse you mention . . . :-)

I have been Oneness for a couple of decades but am currently really struggling with the Gospel of John and how it does not appear to easily fit into a Oneness framework. In the event you are interested, I started a tread about this in the Debate Room in the folder on the Godhead.

[Esaias]

Okay, so what glory did Jesus have with the Father before He was conceived in Mary's womb?

Did Isaiah see God and Jesus together all glorified? Did Ezekiel? Did Moses?

We know the Father had all sorts of Old Testament glory. That's why He was worshipped by Israel as the One, Only, True, and Living God.

So what did they think of Jesus? I mean, BEFORE Mary was "found with child of the Holy Ghost"?

[Amanah]

Jesus is the first and the last, the alpha and the omega, the King of Kings and the only wise God, The Son and the Father.

God is a Spirit, The Lord is that Spirit, and by One Spirit, we are baptized into One Body.

Jesus was in the beginning as a plan to redeem a Church which was purposed from eternity. We came forth from the side of Jesus just as Eve came forth from the side of Adam.

God's Glory is the goodness and mercy of God that caused his people to be redeemed unto himself. When Moses asked to see God's glory, God's response was:

Exodus 33:19 (KJV)
And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

[mfblume]

He was just ready to be crucified and Enthroned. And Revelation says he was slain fron the foundation, so the glory seems to be the Enthronement foreordained.

[covey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

He was just ready to be crucified and Enthroned. And Revelation says he was slain fron the foundation, so the glory seems to be the Enthronement foreordained.

The fact of the matter is, the glory Jesus received after he prayed was the glory of his death, burial, and resurrection and his ascension into the eternal realm of heaven. From God's eternal point of view, the glory of the lamb was before the foundation of the world and this is the glory Jesus had before the world was.