You not preaching holiness till you've named it!

[Cracker Barrel]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Holiness = clothing and appearance? Brother, holiness is so much more than that. As long as we maintain such a low view of holiness, we will keep getting what we've been getting. The outside will look right if the inside is right. But just because the outside looks right, don't mean the inside is right.

The context was not the lack of inward preaching, but rather the lack of the outward. Son we are leaning on you to take the baton and hold on to the old pads and run with patients, and fight the good fight.

The fact remains, you can't be wrong on the outside and be right on the inside. Either.

All these other dummies, please ignore the gainsayers. They have exposed themselves as was the intention. And all those that listen to them will follow the blind leading right into the pit.

2nd Peter 2:12-
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children.Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever
For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them thanthe beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Cracker Barrel

The context was not the lack of inward preaching, but rather the lack of the outward. Son we are leaning on you to take the baton and hold on to the old pads and run with patients, and fight the good fight.

The fact remains, you can't be wrong on the outside and be right on the inside. Either.

All these other dummies, please ignore the gainsayers. They have exposed themselves as was the intention. And all those that listen to them will follow the blind leading right into the pit.

2nd Peter 2:12-
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children.Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever
For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them thanthe beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Brother, I understand what you are saying. BUT - always a but - not trying to be a butt, but... - 'holiness' is something we as a movement have grossly misunderstood. We have to get the foundation right. Otherwise, we'll wind up miles off course, even though the ship will still be sailing, yet it'll be sailing to the wrong destination.

Standards of modesty and behaviour are not the be all end all of holiness. I think if we raise the standard to a Biblical level, to heart purity, entire sanctification (Psalm 26, for ex.), then the rest will fall into place. Too many have been given the false comfort that 'if I dress right, don't do this or that, and look the part, then I have holiness.' Too many have been given the false idea that 'preaching holiness means blasting jewelry and makeup and Hollyweird and public swimming pools.'

When was the last time you heard a message on Acts 15:9? That's a great text for a good old fashioned Pentecostal message, wouldn't you agree? I have never heard that verse preached, anywhere, by anyone.

We have to begin at the beginning, we have to lay the foundation first. My wife got the Holy Ghost and without any input from anyone she cleaned out her closet that night. I wasn't even living all that right (allowing certain things, I was dumb and uneducated, undiscipled in other words) but the HOLY Ghost taught her on day one certain things.

And years later she walked into an apostolic church, a 'conservative' one mind you, and was stunned and embarassed at how people were dressed, she said they look like they are going to a Pentecostal night club or something. But everything was 'within standards', mind you. Men and women looking like they are going to meet some high-dollar business man instead of the Holy God of all creation. Dressed for success?

But it will do no good whatsoever to blast away at external excesses unless and until the internal, heart impurities of pride and selfishness are blasted away. Jesus said FIRST make the inside clean...

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Bowas

Rev. 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

According to scripture, what does "a bride adorned for her husband" mean?

Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and AS A BRIDE ADORNETH HERSELF WITH JEWELS.

It was the custom for brides and bridegrooms to be decked and adorned with jewelry as part of the marriage celebration. God uses this as an analogy for spiritual adornments - the garments of salvation, the robe of righteousness. He did not use that as an endorsement of wearing jewelry all the time like you are on your wedding day.

Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
(1 Peter 3:1-5 KJV)

It doesn't make good sense to take a bald, clear, unambiguous command given by an apostle and use a metaphor from the OT to overthrow and reverse the plain meaning of the apostle. Godly women are not to be adorned with plaiting of the hair, wearing of gold, or putting on of apparel. These things (not an exhaustive list, by the way) are not to be her ADORNMENT (key word). In other words, what a godly women decorates herself with.

[Cracker Barrel]

Originally Posted by Esaias

It was the custom for brides and bridegrooms to be decked and adorned with jewelry as part of the marriage celebration. God uses this as an analogy for spiritual adornments - the garments of salvation, the robe of righteousness. He did not use that as an endorsement of wearing jewelry all the time like you are on your wedding day.

Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
(1 Peter 3:1-5 KJV)

It doesn't make good sense to take a bald, clear, unambiguous command given by an apostle and use a metaphor from the OT to overthrow and reverse the plain meaning of the apostle. Godly women are not to be adorned with plaiting of the hair, wearing of gold, or putting on of apparel. These things (not an exhaustive list, by the way) are not to be her ADORNMENT (key word). In other words, what a godly women decorates herself with.

Don't forget..


1Timmothy 2:9,10
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

Here both apostles Peter and Paul agree. Shall we then take the Scriptures you offer and wrestle them in favor of the opposite? No, this would be foolish.

Peter learned directly from the master himself. Is there any other qualifier of his understanding of the Gospel and what God expects from his people?!?!

The apostle Paul learned the law at the feet of Gamaliel, (Acts 5:34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law,) and the Gospel by direct revelation from Jesus himself, confirmed an Apostle by the rest.

Pauls words give a clear testimony against those that teach otherwise..because his entire message was The Gospel.

2Corinthians 4:2-4
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

It was the custom for brides and bridegrooms to be decked and adorned with jewelry as part of the marriage celebration. God uses this as an analogy for spiritual adornments - the garments of salvation, the robe of righteousness. He did not use that as an endorsement of wearing jewelry all the time like you are on your wedding day.

Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
(1 Peter 3:1-5 KJV)

It doesn't make good sense to take a bald, clear, unambiguous command given by an apostle and use a metaphor from the OT to overthrow and reverse the plain meaning of the apostle. Godly women are not to be adorned with plaiting of the hair, wearing of gold, or putting on of apparel. These things (not an exhaustive list, by the way) are not to be her ADORNMENT (key word). In other words, what a godly women decorates herself with.

It's speaking of a woman's focus, not just using those things.

Why would a sinful thing be allowed on a wedding day and no other time?

[Cracker Barrel]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Brother, I understand what you are saying. BUT - always a but - not trying to be a butt, but... - 'holiness' is something we as a movement have grossly misunderstood. We have to get the foundation right. Otherwise, we'll wind up miles off course, even though the ship will still be sailing, yet it'll be sailing to the wrong destination.

Standards of modesty and behaviour are not the be all end all of holiness. I think if we raise the standard to a Biblical level, to heart purity, entire sanctification (Psalm 26, for ex.), then the rest will fall into place. Too many have been given the false comfort that 'if I dress right, don't do this or that, and look the part, then I have holiness.' Too many have been given the false idea that 'preaching holiness means blasting jewelry and makeup and Hollyweird and public swimming pools.'

When was the last time you heard a message on Acts 15:9? That's a great text for a good old fashioned Pentecostal message, wouldn't you agree? I have never heard that verse preached, anywhere, by anyone.

We have to begin at the beginning, we have to lay the foundation first. My wife got the Holy Ghost and without any input from anyone she cleaned out her closet that night. I wasn't even living all that right (allowing certain things, I was dumb and uneducated, undiscipled in other words) but the HOLY Ghost taught her on day one certain things.

And years later she walked into an apostolic church, a 'conservative' one mind you, and was stunned and embarassed at how people were dressed, she said they look like they are going to a Pentecostal night club or something. But everything was 'within standards', mind you. Men and women looking like they are going to meet some high-dollar business man instead of the Holy God of all creation. Dressed for success?

But it will do no good whatsoever to blast away at external excesses unless and until the internal, heart impurities of pride and selfishness are blasted away. Jesus said FIRST make the inside clean...

For every 1 preacher of righeousness there are 100s tearing down the fabric that hold the church on the road called Holiness. I understand quite a full understanding of Gods Holiness and our weak attempt at separation from the word but if we could only get mo of God. Half the battle would be solved.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It's speaking of a woman's focus, not just using those things.

Why would a sinful thing be allowed on a wedding day and no other time?

Nobody said any of those things were sinful. The THINGS aren't sinful. It's the USE of those things. A woman is not to ADORN herself with those things, they are not to be her adornment.

But let's look closer at what Isaiah said:

And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
(Isaiah 61:5 KJV)

So, it's the Christian thing to do to have a bunch of illegals doing their yard work now, because after all, God used this as a symbol of Israel's restoration?

Let's look at Ezekiel:

I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.
(Ezekiel 16:10-13 KJV)

So, perfectly okay for a Christian woman to go around in badgers' skin, silk, bracelets on her hands (both hands), necklace, a forehead jewel, earrings, and a crown, decked with gold and silver, embroidered linen and silk dresses, etc? All at once (such is the description given by the prophet)? Or would you be feeling a sermon on modesty coming on?

Point is, old testament metaphors and symbols do not replace clear unambiguous statements by an apostle.

Here's one from the OT:

For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee. And the children of Israel stripped themselves of their ornaments by the mount Horeb.
(Exodus 33:5-6 KJV)

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Nobody said any of those things were sinful. The THINGS aren't sinful. It's the USE of those things. A woman is not to ADORN herself with those things, they are not to be her adornment.

But let's look closer at what Isaiah said:

And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
(Isaiah 61:5 KJV)

So, it's the Christian thing to do to have a bunch of illegals doing their yard work now, because after all, God used this as a symbol of Israel's restoration?

Let's look at Ezekiel:

I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.
(Ezekiel 16:10-13 KJV)

So, perfectly okay for a Christian woman to go around in badgers' skin, silk, bracelets on her hands (both hands), necklace, a forehead jewel, earrings, and a crown, decked with gold and silver, embroidered linen and silk dresses, etc? All at once (such is the description given by the prophet)? Or would you be feeling a sermon on modesty coming on?

Point is, old testament metaphors and symbols do not replace clear unambiguous statements by an apostle.

Here's one from the OT:

For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee. And the children of Israel stripped themselves of their ornaments by the mount Horeb.
(Exodus 33:5-6 KJV)

It's these things being a focus. One can wear these things to moderation and focus on the Adornment God desires. That's the only way it makes sense in light of Ezekiel 16.

A Bride ''adorns" herself with jewels. That would make a contradiction if Peter meant merely wearing them.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

The High priest the most holy person was loaded with Jewelry, if jewelry was a sin, he was the most sinful man in Israel and in the Temple.

You must be talking about the crown and the breastplate the priests wore while ministering in the tabernacle. I hardly see this as a way to vindicate jewelry worn by people today, which is for no other purpose than ornamentation (with the exception of a wristwatch or wedding ring). The priests wore the breastplate with the twelve stones to represent the twelve tribes as he ministered in the tabernacle. He Wore those jewels next to his heart as he ministered. there is a lot that could be said about the priests garments, but I think it has nothing to do with proving new testament attire.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Bowas

Rev. 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

According to scripture, what does "a bride adorned for her husband" mean?

Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and AS A BRIDE ADRONETH HERSELF WITH JEWELS.

Probably not much different than from today. Do not modern brides dress in a elaborate white gown with fixed up hair and there is a ring given. All that is adornment. I think mentioning how people dress in ceremony for a special wedding day is not how people would or should ordinarily dress.