Saint Abuse

[navygoat1998]

I have heard it said that sheep bite.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by navygoat1998

I have heard it said that sheep bite.

I have some very cool people in our church family. So, I would say that sheep don't bite, only the wolves who hide among them.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

It could be that so much is expected and demanded of pastors, that they are regularly abused by saints is because the expectations of what a pastor is supposed to be in the world compared to what Christ expects of His pastors is two different things, and that, unfortunately, the present issues are promulgated by the pastorate as much as by the saints.

If a pastor never tries to be a life coach, financial advisor, psychologist, marriage counselor, and etc. people will learn real quick to not go to him for such stuff. Rather, they would let him fulfill his calling to feed Christ's sheep the sincere milk of the Word, no more, no less.

Maybe we need more Pastors in each church...that way they can gang up on the saints

[Praxeas]

Why cant we go to an unsaved counselor? We go to unsaved doctors...right?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Maybe we need more Pastors in each church...that way they can gang up on the saints

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Why cant we go to an unsaved counselor? We go to unsaved doctors...right?

Unsaved doctor, I guess, but unsaved counselor? Sounds a bit odd. How "unsaved" are they?

[good samaritan]

I've had people come to me for marriage advise. I share the Scriptures and give some insight. The rest is up to them to seek God, pray, repent if necessary, perfect holiness in the fear of the Lord and honor their vows.
Compare that to some 12 week course held at the pastor's house once a week in which everyone goes through some man-written manual on how to be a good Christian couple.

Which one will lead to burn out?

I don't think ND was talking about 12week marriage courses. When you are bringing new converts with all there drama you are going to have them knocking your door and ringing your phone if you care enough to make yourself available.

Yes, it does. But I know pastor's that sit down with couples, go over all their financial statements (e.g. check stubs, bills, debts, mortgages, and etc.), draft a budget, plug in the numbers and subtract a tithe and offering, and have a family living down to the counting of pennies each month.

That may be good fiscal management and I'm not against that, if it helps (as I know it has helped someone close to me) but that isn't the sincere milk of the Word.

The sincere milk of the Word is "Your Heavenly Father knows what you have need of...".

Yes, such a budget may fix a problem, but imagine doing that sixty times a month if the church is large because so many people are mishandling their assets?

What's more important? Fixing someone's mess or teaching them the principles of the Word and letting God lead the person to fix their own mess?

Which one leads to burnout?

Which one describes the Scriptural calling of a pastor and which one is merely the expectations the world places upon pastors?

I would say that it is a rare thing for a pastor to actually get so involved with someone's finances that they are able to look through people's personal records. People usually only give the details of their need. Most people who want help so bad they would lay it out in the open like that are not the ones struggling financially. Most people who are needing help are not wanting to be made accountable.

Is it because shepherds are burning themselves out running ragged to do Christ's job for Him?

Is it because they aren't as vested as they should be in prayer and fasting and revelation of the Word because they're so burnt out holding so many hands?

Or, could it be that a victorious life in Christ isn't the central message of the pastor's preaching to the saints because he may end up preaching himself out of his job?

I would dare to say that is the kind of things most pastors are teaching and preaching.

Imagine a church that didn't need much pastoring by the pastor? How useless would the pastor begin to feel?

I would feel successful.

Some things in the ministry are caused by the ministry.

My wife and I invited a youth pastor and his family over for dinner one time. Our kids played with their kids while we talked shop. He spoke of how so many of the older youths are coming to him seeking advice about the future (college? workforce? marriage?) and he admitted to my wife and me that he was at a loss on what to say, even though he felt this burden to counsel and share. He asked me what I would do.

I said, "I never advise anyone anything when it comes to big, life-changing decisions". Their jaws dropped, so I explained.

I told them, if someone comes to me and I tell them what I think they should do, and they go and do it, and it turns out to be a mistake, and it negatively affects their life and perhaps such a negative stroke in their life causes them to stumble, then what have I done?

I explained that all big life changing decisions must be guided by the Lord alone. If someone does only what I would do they will only receive what I receive and that may not be God's will for them. He may want something different, less, more, better, etc.

Basically, I got out of the "here's how to live your life according to me" game a long time ago.

I agree with that in most cases. Sometimes there is a scenario of sin involved and there is some teaching that must take place. I personally, if asked my advice about secular matters most of the time I will only try and help them think objectively. If I give an opinion it try to make sure that it is understood that it is just an opinion and the responsibility is theirs to decide.

Each saint will stand at the judgment seat of Christ with no pastor, elder, leader, prophet, apostle, bishop, friend, or parent and give an account to the Lord for everything they did in life.

Imagine telling the Lord Jesus, "I took that job/married that person/transferred to that church/quit that ministry/had that surgery/etc. because my (fill in the blank minister) said I should and I wanted to obey him/her".

Think that's going to fly with the Son of the Living God?

Not a chance. Saints needs to be taught to rely completely on the Lord for all things as Head of the Church, not continually reaching out horizontally. That's just arm the flesh. Jesus didn't say, abide in the church, or abide in the ministry, or abide in the "man of God". He said "abide in Me for without Me, you can do nothing".

With a church, a pastor, a bishop, an elder, a prophet, a whatever, God's saints can do a whole lot of damage. But in Christ, no saint will ever go wrong.

So let's ask the question: Is this how saints are being taught to live by the shepherds in their midst? Or is a co-dependent "you need me as the man of God in your life or you won't make it to heaven" being taught?

I am thankful for the ministry in the church. I don't think most pastors are resentful, but they are human. You are correct to say that pastors sometimes try to play God's role. I think you may misunderstand the reason why though. I think many continually give out of love for people's souls. It is amazing the extent of craziness you will put up with when you care for someone. I don't think it is about making people dependent, because we always will be dependent on one another.

I believe we all need each other and that is the design of the church. We are all one body. Let's cut one another some slack because what man hates his own body.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones

maybe a little out of context, but it applies to the church also.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

How long have you been a pastor?

For about 10 years, give or take.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

For about 10 years, give or take.

Cool, how much time do you think you spend with your church family?

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by n david

Since there are a few threads beating up Pastors, let's discuss abusive saints.

If you've ever been a Pastor or associate, you know them.

They call several times a week, asking for spiritual advice. They request to speak with you after every service, sometimes taking an hour or more. They cry and complain about their marriage or spiritual life, yet don't listen or do anything with the advice given.

They're also quick to complain and backstab you if you're unable to meet their demands. God forbid the Pastor take a day off, or request to schedule a meeting at another time because there are visiting family members or friends waiting at home for lunch Sunday after the morning service.

They call for financial help with bills or rent, then blow up when it's cut off after several months of them not budgeting their money properly. They have money for their Disney vacation, but can't afford the rent. They have cable, multiple cell phones and tablets, wifi and other gadgets, but can't afford to pay for food or medicine.

Then comes the advent of the internet. AOL, MySpace, Everyone's Connected and now Facebook and internet forums. Now Pastors aren't just slandered against in the local assembly or around other churches. It's the world wide web! Now they're libeled online for the world to see. And God forbid they ever discuss Pastoral issues with other Pastors.

You poor thing.

Should have stuck with that Wal-Mart job, I suppose.