Without Holiness . . .

[Sean]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

If we are to be partakers of the divine nature, as II Peter 1 says, there cannot be two natures at work. One must die, so that the other can live. If we realize that our self-will, our self nature must die, and the nature of Christ must be the one we live by, then holiness in all manner of living will be the natural result of such a decision.

Amen

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Sinless perfection is taught everywhere you look in the Bible.

Being perfect before God, being without sin is Gods plan and purpose for every believer.

Amen. Attainting Christ-likeness is to come closer and ever closer to moral innocence before God (the best definition of righteousness in the Scriptures), which means being sin-free.

Not that there is no law of sin present, but that the law of sin has been reduced and nullified by the power of the Holy Spirit, so that a person walks in faith without committing transgressions against God's law.

[Aquila]

Here is a conversation I had with God some time back. I thought I might share it here for you guys to offer your thoughts.

It's been said that, "Just a little talk with Jesus makes it right." Well, I tried this. And what happened has left me astounded. I was speaking to the LORD in prayer recently I began to ask Him, "Why are we so divided?", and, "What must I do to be holy?" And this is the message that I felt burning in my heart so hot that I had to simply type it out as the power overwhelmed me… (I paraphrase in that it all came as a block of emotions to my spirit... not necessarily words). So, here it is... my little talk with the LORD....

"Why are we so divided?"
"What must I do to be holy?"

My child, I will tell you why you are all so divided. It is your religions. They are not of me. Each of you has a list. A list of do’s and don’ts. And each of you think that I authored your respective lists. Baptists have their list, Catholics have their lists, Pentecostals have their lists, Methodists have their lists, Lutherans have their lists, Charismatics have their lists, Messianics have their lists, Episcopals have their lists… each list is different. I’m not a God of confusion. Each list is a doctrine of man. Some say you must keep the Ten Commandments that I delivered to Moses to give to my people. Some of you expand upon these and add feast days, Sabbaths, dietary regulations, linguistic nuances of eccentricity wherein you think you are shown to be wise, yet you are looking foolish in your conceits. You want to be so much like my people… but not like me. You fail to realize… I’m the eternal, the constant, the source; the Alpha, the Omega, the beginning, the ending, the all in all, the great I AM that I AM… I’m not Catholic, Protestant, or Evangelical… neither am I Jewish. I’m GOD. Still some of you have codified my teachings into a strict body of church law in which you seek to please me by changing your “behavior”… but not your “being”. Teachings of mine were for spiritual development, they were not intended to be turned into dry do’s and don’ts to maintain a religious status quo. Then some of you codified the methods with which I addressed issues in Israel or the first generation of churches... making them “commandments” instead of seeing the spirit behind the reasoning. A reasoning that endures in any context, be it time or culture. Then you added historical traditions established by various religious leaders and founders. You codified congregation structures, financial models, added liturgies, added dietary regulations, added special days of worship, added dress codes, even added prohibitions on both men and women I never required. Each of you has these LISTS! Stop trying to please me by living these man-made lists! They divide you because you measure yourselves against one another based on your respective man-made LISTS. Ask the Pharisee to list exactly what must be done to please me! Let him present his list! And suddenly you’ll see another Pharisee argue against something on the first Pharisee’s list, or seek to add something from their list to it!!! Eventually they are all squabbling over which commandments on which list has to be obeyed and which do not! Why? It is because the spirit of legalism leaves you awash in the sea of subjective personal interpretation wherein one man’s interpretation is just as good as another’s. Yet you cling to them because you think they make you “holy”. These lists don’t make you holy. What makes you Holy is… ME.

You see… I am the Vine, and you are the branches. You are called to be living extensions of me… not living extensions of the ancient nation of Israel, your given church, or your given denomination. You are called to be conformed into the image and likeness of Christ… not the image and likeness of your respective church, movement, or denomination. When you live by their LISTS… you are becoming like them… NOT like me.

And so you ask… How do I become like you? I, the LORD, shall answer you this day. Let him who has an ear, let him hear!!!...

The answer is in the very nature of my being my beloved. You see… I AM… love. When you are loving, gracious, forgiving, kind, compassionate, patient, long suffering, temperate, and giving… you are being like Me. Do you wish to fulfill “the law”??? DON’T live by it. Find its core. Find its essence. Find my reason for delivering said laws in their given contexts. You’ll discover that it is because I was teaching many different things… but the core was and always has been… MY love. Love me my child. Love me with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. And demonstrate your love for me by loving others as yourself. If you do this you will have fulfilled the essence of MY law. If there is any other commandment ever brought to your attention, know this… it is fulfilled in this single statement, “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” In this you do no wrong… and in loving… you become like me… the one who is love itself.

So be not swayed by their LISTS. Do not be deceived by their vain and eccentric verbiage. Do not emulate a nation, a denomination, or a church. Instead… emulate Me and you will find rest for your souls. Love Me with all your being… and show me that you love Me by loving others as yourself. The only commandment I give you is this… LOVE. For love will not murder, steal, covet, slander, commit adultery, rage, revenge, or blaspheme. Love will set every day aside as holy… because love seeks to give absolute devotion every single day without end. I am not impressed with your LISTS. First, your lists all differ. And second, you don’t even keep your own lists perfectly! This makes you hypocrites of the worst kind. Why do you do this to yourselves??? Do you really think I’m IMPRESSED by anything you do? Am I impressed by any cherry picked LIST of commandments you’ve chosen to embrace… at the expense of others that you chose not to? Do you really think I’m going to open the books and judge you by each of your respective lists???! Will I judge according to dress code, hairstyles, feast days, and your labored mispronunciations of an ancient language??? Will I praise you for acting Jewish… even though if the truth were to be told… you don’t have a single drop of Hebrew blood in your body??? No. When you stand before Me… I will only seek to know two things: Did you love me with all your being? Did you seek to show your love for me by loving others as yourself? And you’ll then begin to see how your LISTS hindered you from loving your neighbors. You will see how your lusts, adulteries, thievery, slander, etc. are not rooted in failing to obey a rule on a LIST… but in your failure to LOVE. For love does no harm to the object of its affection.

So I leave you with this… become like Me. Be conformed into the very image and likeness of Jesus Christ, my beloved Son. And in this you will find true holiness. In this you will find the law of liberty… the law of LOVE. You will have discovered… ME.

[KeptByTheWord]

Aquila, yes indeed. Being conformed into the image and likeness of Jesus will produce true holiness, because the law of the Spirit of Christ indwelling us is the only power that is able to change us.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here is a conversation I had with God some time back. I thought I might share it here for you guys to offer your thoughts.

It's been said that, "Just a little talk with Jesus makes it right." Well, I tried this. And what happened has left me astounded. I was speaking to the LORD in prayer recently I began to ask Him, "Why are we so divided?", and, "What must I do to be holy?" And this is the message that I felt burning in my heart so hot that I had to simply type it out as the power overwhelmed me… (I paraphrase in that it all came as a block of emotions to my spirit... not necessarily words). So, here it is... my little talk with the LORD....

"Why are we so divided?"
"What must I do to be holy?"

My child, I will tell you why you are all so divided. It is your religions. They are not of me. Each of you has a list. A list of do’s and don’ts. And each of you think that I authored your respective lists. Baptists have their list, Catholics have their lists, Pentecostals have their lists, Methodists have their lists, Lutherans have their lists, Charismatics have their lists, Messianics have their lists, Episcopals have their lists… each list is different. I’m not a God of confusion. Each list is a doctrine of man. Some say you must keep the Ten Commandments that I delivered to Moses to give to my people. Some of you expand upon these and add feast days, Sabbaths, dietary regulations, linguistic nuances of eccentricity wherein you think you are shown to be wise, yet you are looking foolish in your conceits. You want to be so much like my people… but not like me. You fail to realize… I’m the eternal, the constant, the source; the Alpha, the Omega, the beginning, the ending, the all in all, the great I AM that I AM… I’m not Catholic, Protestant, or Evangelical… neither am I Jewish. I’m GOD. Still some of you have codified my teachings into a strict body of church law in which you seek to please me by changing your “behavior”… but not your “being”. Teachings of mine were for spiritual development, they were not intended to be turned into dry do’s and don’ts to maintain a religious status quo. Then some of you codified the methods with which I addressed issues in Israel or the first generation of churches... making them “commandments” instead of seeing the spirit behind the reasoning. A reasoning that endures in any context, be it time or culture. Then you added historical traditions established by various religious leaders and founders. You codified congregation structures, financial models, added liturgies, added dietary regulations, added special days of worship, added dress codes, even added prohibitions on both men and women I never required. Each of you has these LISTS! Stop trying to please me by living these man-made lists! They divide you because you measure yourselves against one another based on your respective man-made LISTS. Ask the Pharisee to list exactly what must be done to please me! Let him present his list! And suddenly you’ll see another Pharisee argue against something on the first Pharisee’s list, or seek to add something from their list to it!!! Eventually they are all squabbling over which commandments on which list has to be obeyed and which do not! Why? It is because the spirit of legalism leaves you awash in the sea of subjective personal interpretation wherein one man’s interpretation is just as good as another’s. Yet you cling to them because you think they make you “holy”. These lists don’t make you holy. What makes you Holy is… ME.

You see… I am the Vine, and you are the branches. You are called to be living extensions of me… not living extensions of the ancient nation of Israel, your given church, or your given denomination. You are called to be conformed into the image and likeness of Christ… not the image and likeness of your respective church, movement, or denomination. When you live by their LISTS… you are becoming like them… NOT like me.

And so you ask… How do I become like you? I, the LORD, shall answer you this day. Let him who has an ear, let him hear!!!...

The answer is in the very nature of my being my beloved. You see… I AM… love. When you are loving, gracious, forgiving, kind, compassionate, patient, long suffering, temperate, and giving… you are being like Me. Do you wish to fulfill “the law”??? DON’T live by it. Find its core. Find its essence. Find my reason for delivering said laws in their given contexts. You’ll discover that it is because I was teaching many different things… but the core was and always has been… MY love. Love me my child. Love me with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. And demonstrate your love for me by loving others as yourself. If you do this you will have fulfilled the essence of MY law. If there is any other commandment ever brought to your attention, know this… it is fulfilled in this single statement, “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” In this you do no wrong… and in loving… you become like me… the one who is love itself.

So be not swayed by their LISTS. Do not be deceived by their vain and eccentric verbiage. Do not emulate a nation, a denomination, or a church. Instead… emulate Me and you will find rest for your souls. Love Me with all your being… and show me that you love Me by loving others as yourself. The only commandment I give you is this… LOVE. For love will not murder, steal, covet, slander, commit adultery, rage, revenge, or blaspheme. Love will set every day aside as holy… because love seeks to give absolute devotion every single day without end. I am not impressed with your LISTS. First, your lists all differ. And second, you don’t even keep your own lists perfectly! This makes you hypocrites of the worst kind. Why do you do this to yourselves??? Do you really think I’m IMPRESSED by anything you do? Am I impressed by any cherry picked LIST of commandments you’ve chosen to embrace… at the expense of others that you chose not to? Do you really think I’m going to open the books and judge you by each of your respective lists???! Will I judge according to dress code, hairstyles, feast days, and your labored mispronunciations of an ancient language??? Will I praise you for acting Jewish… even though if the truth were to be told… you don’t have a single drop of Hebrew blood in your body??? No. When you stand before Me… I will only seek to know two things: Did you love me with all your being? Did you seek to show your love for me by loving others as yourself? And you’ll then begin to see how your LISTS hindered you from loving your neighbors. You will see how your lusts, adulteries, thievery, slander, etc. are not rooted in failing to obey a rule on a LIST… but in your failure to LOVE. For love does no harm to the object of its affection.

So I leave you with this… become like Me. Be conformed into the very image and likeness of Jesus Christ, my beloved Son. And in this you will find true holiness. In this you will find the law of liberty… the law of LOVE. You will have discovered… ME.

Obviously this is not Jesus speaking. It does have some elements of truth in it but mostly Aquila.

Friends if Jesus is attacking these "lists" of commandments he would be attacking himself! After all it was HE who gave these "lists" of commands.

Far better that we would through the Holy Spirit power take HEED to the commands of Jesus that we might be set apart to HIM.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Obviously this is not Jesus speaking. It does have some elements of truth in it but mostly Aquila.

Friends if Jesus is attacking these "lists" of commandments he would be attacking himself! After all it was HE who gave these "lists" of commands.

Far better that we would through the Holy Spirit power take HEED to the commands of Jesus that we might be set apart to HIM.

Jesus didn't give lists of external standards of dress. Jesus didn't give lists of how much money to give each week. Jesus did not give lists of which physical activities one could or could not participate in.

He did give us 2 commandments to live by though, which were commandments dealing with the HEART.

Big difference from the "lists" the Pharisees had of washing of the hands, and such, to Jesus dealing with issues of the heart. It is the same thing today. We have man-made edicts dealing all the "washing of the hands" edicts like the Pharisees, but Jesus wants to deal with our hearts first and foremost.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Jesus didn't give lists of external standards of dress. Jesus didn't give lists of how much money to give each week. Jesus did not give lists of which physical activities one could or could not participate in.

He did give us 2 commandments to live by though, which were commandments dealing with the HEART.

Big difference from the "lists" the Pharisees had of washing of the hands, and such, to Jesus dealing with issues of the heart. It is the same thing today. We have man-made edicts dealing all the "washing of the hands" edicts like the Pharisees, but Jesus wants to deal with our hearts first and foremost.

Aquila does not "seem" to like the specific teachings of Jesus. They are not man made lists. If we were just talking man made lists I would be the first to amen him.

Jesus gave us commandments of things to do. Teaching us how to be like him. One of these long "lists" of things for us to do or not do can be found stretching throughout Matthew 5-7.

When Jesus left the Apostles he gave them this instruction.

18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt 28:18-20

ALL THINGS. See what I mean? Some have devalued the teachings delivered to us by Christ as "lists". They are all important. Now the heart of all his commands can be summed up in the two greatest.

Love God
Love fellow man

Yikes some would even call THOSE a list!

Yet without the rest of the teachings, commands, and instructions Christ gave we would not know HOW to love God or our neighbor.

So in the great commission The Lord specified as soon as one were baptized he should be taught all the Lord had instructed his apostles.

Peace and love, Michael.

[good samaritan]

Get the inside right the outside will follow. Jesus didn't have to name specifics although I am not certain that he didn't. He knew that the Holy Ghost was going to be poured out and that is what is needed to live a holy life. I am for churches having biblical standards in outward dress and other things that are like.

Gods' Spirit has led me many times: it has led me to read and study my bible and to have church leaders in my life to help me in understanding Gods' word(elders, pastors, bishops whatever you call them.) I have known people who shortly after receiving the Holy Ghost use profanity and when admonished they didn't know it was wrong.

The Holy Ghost leads us to further truth, but many times it is by leading people to godly teachers and making their heart receptive to God's Word. I am not usually very specific behind the pulpit on naming things. I mostly only say things the Bible explicitly says, I don't want to cause someone new to the church to get off thinking about things that probably aren't important for them at that moment.(outward holiness standards)

If the Spirit of God is really moving in service it is amazing how receptive people become. You can be specific though, and people seem to soak it all in. That is how I have seen the Holy Ghost work many times. That being said preachers must be sure to be biblically accurate because many are going to obey and we certainly want to teach truth.

[good samaritan]

The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God. We say many times about one another I feel you Spirit is bad or good. I think that in most cases the Holy Ghost isn't explicitly saying do this or do that, but we feel it confirming or alarming us of teaching that we get from outside sources. This is my opinion of how things have worked in my personal life, but I am sure I still have much to learn.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Aquila does not "seem" to like the specific teachings of Jesus. They are not man made lists. If we were just talking man made lists I would be the first to amen him.

Jesus gave us commandments of things to do. Teaching us how to be like him. One of these long "lists" of things for us to do or not do can be found stretching throughout Matthew 5-7.

When Jesus left the Apostles he gave them this instruction.

18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt 28:18-20

ALL THINGS. See what I mean? Some have devalued the teachings delivered to us by Christ as "lists". They are all important. Now the heart of all his commands can be summed up in the two greatest.

Love God
Love fellow man

Yikes some would even call THOSE a list!

Yet without the rest of the teachings, commands, and instructions Christ gave we would not know HOW to love God or our neighbor.

So in the great commission The Lord specified as soon as one were baptized he should be taught all the Lord had instructed his apostles.

Peace and love, Michael.

Jesus certainly gave us lots of lists and instructions, you are right. But those instructions dealt with HEART issues. Big difference here.

Men (like the Pharisees) want to deal with physical, outward issues that can be judged by a glance, or a few well worded questions. They have their lists.

Jesus has standards and lists also, but they start first at the heart and work from inward to outward. They cannot be judged easily by a quick glance or even a few well worded questions. The lists Jesus was talking about are things that are hidden deep within the heart of a man that can be hidden from other men, but not from God.

Do you see the difference here?

And do you see why the Pharisees were so willing to argue bitterly over their "lists" and turned away, offended, when Jesus began to speak about issues of the heart?

It is the same today. Human nature has not changed.

I am presuming to believe the impression Aquila received from the Lord was referencing the physical, Pharisaical lists, but I'm sure he'll be back soon to clarify.