Judaic Hebraisms in the Apocaplypse

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe in angels. Satan always copies what God has already established. I believe that "spirit guides" and "familiar spirits" are Satan's efforts to copy the ministry of angels.

Agreed. I was a heathen once, wicked in lifestyle. I had familiars. Nasty, nasty work. God, deliver us from the evil!

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Excellent article.

Have you considered the parallels to Exodus?

Moses saved from Pharaoh
Jesus saved from Herod

Moses fleeing into the wilderness for 40 years
Jesus going into the wilderness for 40 days

the rod of Moses
the rod of iron

the plagues upon the Egyptians
the plagues upon humanity

the Passover lamb
behold a lamb

The woman fleeing to the desert
Israel going into the desert

The apparition to John
The apparition to Moses and the elders in Mount Sinai

the tabernacle in the wilderness
The heavenly tabernacle

and many, many more

Thanks.

I've, in a very general way, considered how Moses was a type and shadow of Christ, but I've never really looked into the specific parallels you mention above.

Certainly worthy of our consideration. Thanks again.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Thank you! I've never considered viewing this as you've done here, but, admittedly, your explanation does seem more plausiblle or appropriate. I suppose my attempts to comprehend the identity of the angels has been "tainted" (for lack of a better term to describe it) by the many years of listening to, and reading the things others have published, although I've always had the lingering doubt of whether it be true or not.

When I came into the faith, I had always been told and was led to believe that the "angel" to the sundry churches was the pastor, the man of God, who led the assembly from the bishop's chair.

I never questioned it. Believed it myself, generally speaking, and probably offered such an explanation to others.

But in the last two to three years, as I became more and more exposed to the idea of the righteousness of a plural eldership (and conversely, to the unrighteousness of a monarchial bishop), I began to re-evaluate the passage referring to the angels in Revelation.

While I was reading this article (which believes the angels are heavenly spirit beings):

http://www.gloriouschurch.com/pdf/An...n-Churches.pdf

I had the opposite thought that since the word just means messengers, and since John was trapped on Patmos, messengers would be needed to relay the documents he wrote to the intended recipients.

If you see a long look at the Greek, the preposition "to" or "unto" isn't even present.

The Greek looks like this:

Τῷ ἀγγέλῳ τῆς Ἐφέσίνης ἐκκλησίας γράψον Τάδε λέγει...

In English, it translates to:

the angel of the Ephesus called out ones write these things saying...

And then the verse goes into the words which Christ wanted written to the Ephesian believers.

So, if John is dictating to a messenger the very words Christ dictated to him, in a very real sense the "messenger" is writing to the various churches as John dictates to him what the Lord dictated to John.

It comes out to something like this:

The messenger of the Ephesian church writes these things, saying...

Notice "of the". It is a prepositional phrase (in Greek it's tou). This is the Genitive (belonging/pertaining or originated in/from) masculine singular.

So, in a very real sense, the "angel" belongs/pertains to, or originates from Ephesus. And no wonder, since the messenger that came to Patmos to deliver the John's letter was from Ephesus (and so on and so forth for the other six assemblies).

The only other possible conclusion I can draw is that Jesus is referring to Himself as the messenger/angel, as if to say:

"The angel (i.e. Me) of the Ephesian church writes these things, saying..."

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The Greek looks like this:

Τῷ ἀγγέλῳ τῆς Ἐφέσίνης ἐκκλησίας γράψον Τάδε λέγει...

In English, it translates to:

the angel of the Ephesus called out ones write these things saying...

Hi, Everyone

Yes, I am quoting my own post (it was past the allowable edit time) so I can correct an error I made in the above.

I made a mistake in writing that Τῷ (bolded above) should only be translated as "the" when in fact, because it is the dative case for the Greek definite article (that is, it highlights the indirect object of the verb write), it does actually mean "to the" and not just "the".

I apologize for the error. You can disregard pretty much any point I attempted to make after the above if any point was dependent on the idea of Τῷ only meaning "the".

Sorry again if anyone read the above and was confused or misled.

[Lafon]

Thanks for the correction ... although I had not yet gotten to that place in examining everything your explanation contains, but do see where it might have led to some confusion.

Hey! Welcome to the club, friend! We all make mistakes. Its the failure to correct them upon discovery where the shame lies, therefore your membership is approved.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I've read that book and do not discredit the ability of God to send angelic hosts to the aid of His people. I know it has, does, and will happen again again until the culmination of the age.

But look at the context. While God could have acted supernaturally to aid John in getting the book off of the island, and perhaps the messengers that carried the Revelation to Asia Minor were spirit beings, we have no reason to assume so. All we have to go on is the Greek word aggelos or messenger/angel.

To me, these things are completed just as easily through human agency. It's likely for example, that Phoebe was the one who carried the epistle of Paul to the Roman assembly to Rome. Human agency. God has ever placed His Word in the hands of men. Why would He stop doing so with the Apocalypse?

Brother Aaron, if John was exiled to an island, they would have left him there to die without outside help. He would have been in the original episode of SURVIVOR...LOL

Anyway, the Romans would not allow cargo and visitors, especially offering transport on a "deserted" island.

At least that is what I always heard.


I personally believe that John was in an impossible situation and needed divine help. He was originally supposed to be executed. This banishment was a form of "hands off" execution.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Sean

Brother Aaron, if John was exiled to an island, they would have left him there to die without outside help. He would have been in the original episode of SURVIVOR...LOL

It was a fully functioning prison island with a city and acropolis by the time John arrived, a politcal prison. In the Roman empire of the day, any and all religious prophecy, especially any that had political rammifications, was considered a crime.

But it wasn't a death camp. John would have starved or died of thirst long before he ever got the chance to write the Revelation. Speaking of which:

Anyway, the Romans would not allow cargo and visitors, especially offering transport on a "deserted" island.

How did John get the papyri, ink, and quills to write the oracles of the book if he had no access to any supplies?

I personally believe that John was in an impossible situation and needed divine help. He was originally supposed to be executed. This banishment was a form of "hands off" execution.

No doubt, certain dangers and impossibilities presented themselves. And even if the angels who transported the text off island to Asia Minor and beyond were true angelic beings of the spirit world, it still doesn't mean John "wrote" to them, as it were.

They acted as plain old messengers, delivering the goods to the intended recipients, i.e. the seven churches.

[Sean]

That is the first time i heard of it being a prison. I always heard it was a deserted island, and after John escaped death by the Romans, he was banished there to die. I will have to look into it. Thanks.

[Sean]

Thanks bro. I checked it out online. One writer says John may have been there 18 months until the persecutions subsided with the death of the emperor. Then he went back to Ephesus. If that is true. Our conversation just got easier. (if the source is historically correct)

[Sean]

I still have a problem with the angels of the 7 churches being PASTORS as it was taught in my last church I attended. It doesnt fit the structure of leadership I see in the N.T.,but who knows. It is subject to conjecture.

If you or anyone has some commentary on this subject, please bring it to the table. Thanks