Righteousness Defined

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Carl

Amen Lafon, never have more assumptions been made about a scriptural passage than this one.

Its a pretty graphic parable if you are right, Jesus name Lazarus and Abraham by name.

He at least was kind enough to not give the name of the rich man. That would be devastating to the descendants and even the brothers of the rich man to hear of their brother in hell.

Abraham told the rich man that his brothers had the Law to go by to stay out of hell.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Sean

Lafon, the rich man was BEFORE Jesus and under the Law.

This statement only affirms Lafons view. Passage after passage in the OT tell us that the dead are not raised until the parousia of Christ when he judges the dead some to everlasting life and some to eternal damnation.

[Sean]

It would be a crack up to see you guys comment on Jesus' simple words the way you do if you lived in His days.

I could see it now...

Jesus says...Luke 16:19-31
King James Version (KJV)
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.



And you guys, as his disciples, explain to all listening after Jesus says these words above..."What the master really means, is that this is just a story. This is only ficticious. It didnt really happen. It is just a parable. I realize that Jesus used actual names, but it is just symbolic of something else. Jesus says many things that do not mean what you may think it means (parables). The master is an amazing story teller..just look at how detailed he was here. But it just did not actually happen".



Thank God that this line of thinking was not among his disciples in those days....The disciples did not use these ridiculous commentaries we use these days. They just believe the words of Jesus.

[Lafon]

Sean, could you define a PARABLE?

What does one infer/imply when they say "this or that" story which Jesus told was a parable?

Moreover, what "purpose" does a parable serve (that is, what is it meant to depict?

[votivesoul]

I've always understood righteousness to mean "moral innocence, purity, and perfection", i.e. that just, eternal state of God, which can now be imputed to us by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have likewise heard of that century old prophecy. I think it was a legitimate declaration from the Spirit.

I have seen all manner of oddities and exhibitionist displays made in an attempt to "worship". I have stood next to adulterers, liars, Jezebels, and many others long since born of the Spirit, who would "worship" the Lord with amazing displays of devotions, but their hearts were impure, polluted by lusts and vanity.

So what matters more? Dancing like David or living like him? I would rather see a body of believers lift up pure hands with a pure heart and not be given over to what so many assume is true, spiritual, Pentecostal worship (which is often excessive and disorderly), instead of watching a bunch of carnal pretenders shouting with the voice of the flesh as they throw down their praise at a useless altar.

[votivesoul]

Regarding the teaching on Lazarus and the rich man, however we interpret it, and in whatever way we think someone has erred and led others into, at best, confusion and uncertainty, and at worst, outright deception, I heartily recommend we remind ourselves of James 3:1-2,

1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

We all need to be careful to presume to teach the Word of the Lord because as James said, in many thing, we offend all. We are all prone to error, no matter how sincere or upright of character we believe ourselves to be.

There is a big difference between a false teacher (i.e. someone who's character and motives are deceitful) versus someone who's innocently in error and doesn't know the mistakes they are making with the Word, but might come around if taught (e.g. an Apollos).

So, we must give grace, considering our own selves. I've not always believed everything I currently believe, and so, in times past, have taught things differently than I now teach them. Did that make me an unrighteous false teacher?

I hope not! Rather, I should hope that I was an upright man still learning and being led into all truth by the Spirit.

From this I have learned to give much grace and mercy to those who teach, even when I think they've got things wrong. If I know the character of their heart, I dwell with them in peace, praying privately for them to receive a more accurate understanding of the Word.

But if and when I discern that the heart of a man is wicked, even if what he is saying is accurate truth, I won't amen that fellow no matter how much his doctrine is correct.

See the difference?

[Michael The Disciple]

Jesus is the firstborn from the dead. The firstfruits of them that slept. The only one who has immortality.

Its obviously a parable. Where was God in Abes Bosom? He is not even mentioned! Who gets prayed to in Abes Bosom? Abraham! Where did Adam go before Abraham lived, died and came into his Bosom? Where did Noah go?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Sean

It would be a crack up to see you guys comment on Jesus' simple words the way you do if you lived in His days.

I could see it now...

Jesus says...Luke 16:19-31
King James Version (KJV)
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

And you guys, as his disciples, explain to all listening after Jesus says these words above..."What the master really means, is that this is just a story. This is only ficticious. It didnt really happen. It is just a parable. I realize that Jesus used actual names, but it is just symbolic of something else. Jesus says many things that do not mean what you may think it means (parables). The master is an amazing story teller..just look at how detailed he was here. But it just did not actually happen".

Thank God that this line of thinking was not among his disciples in those days....The disciples did not use these ridiculous commentaries we use these days. They just believe the words of Jesus.

I just say WOW, I repeat what I said earlier, "It should not matter, if this is a parable or not. The problem comes in missing the whole point of the lesson that is to be learned from the story.

What difference does it make today if this is a parable or story of an actual person? What we should be trying to understand was why did the writer Luke include this story in his book, and what are we to learn from this story?

I am reminded of the words of Jesus, when he spoke to the Pharisees "you strain at a gnat and swallow a camel".
Just believe the words of Christ indeed, Jesus always had a reason for relating any story. What was Jesus reason for telling this story?

[Godsdrummer]

Good points Votive soul.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I've always understood righteousness to mean "moral innocence, purity, and perfection", i.e. that just, eternal state of God, which can now be imputed to us by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have likewise heard of that century old prophecy. I think it was a legitimate declaration from the Spirit.

I have seen all manner of oddities and exhibitionist displays made in an attempt to "worship". I have stood next to adulterers, liars, Jezebels, and many others long since born of the Spirit, who would "worship" the Lord with amazing displays of devotions, but their hearts were impure, polluted by lusts and vanity.

So what matters more? Dancing like David or living like him? I would rather see a body of believers lift up pure hands with a pure heart and not be given over to what so many assume is true, spiritual, Pentecostal worship (which is often excessive and disorderly), instead of watching a bunch of carnal pretenders shouting with the voice of the flesh as they throw down their praise at a useless altar.

I agree. Too much emphasis is put on outward appearances, and not on the inner attitude. Righteousness and holiness is not defined by the keeping of certain codes of dress, statutes of man, but rather the inner man of the heart. All those things are a form of out ward worship. Which do not show forth the true spirit of Christ, (righteousness) Love joy peace longsuffering, goodness, gentleness, meekness, faith, temperance.