Biblical Argument or Private Interpretation?

[renee819]

Jason wrote,

So you believe that someone can be a believer but they are not saved? Can you give a scripture to support that view? Does not the Bible equate true belief with salvation numerous times in the NT?

First, no one is saved yet. Only when we hear, “Well done,” will we be certain.
And yes, I can give scripture.

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did

.

At this point they are Believers. But Phillip knew better than to leave them as just Believers. So he baptized them in Jesus name, and he knew that Believers don't automatically receive the Holy Ghost as soon as they believe, so sent for Peter and John. They are still Believers, because they have not been born again.

:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost

.

And then we have the example in Acts 19. These were Believers, taught by Apollos, and had been baptized unto Johns baptism and had not received the Holy Ghost.
Paul, baptizes them they right way, and prayed for them to receive the Holy Ghost.
There is no other way.

Jason wrote,

Second to that what do you mean by your last paragraph? Are you saying that someone's life can appear righteous, but if they haven't spoken in tongues then really their righteousness is just a show for other men?

I believe a better way of putting that would be, If they haven't received the Holy Ghost, with the evidence, they can not live righteous lives. They don't have the power of God to help them.

Jason wrote,

I've heard that viewpoint from oneness viewpoint, of course the irony is few groups are as works based as oneness pentecostals who believe their righteousness consists in what they wear and what they don't do, rarely actually emphasizing the Spirit of holiness which affects attitudes, thoughts, treatment of others......they tend to have a neo pharaseeical view which equates holiness with dress code and adornment. From that standpoint who is trying to gain the approval of men?

So sad, but soooo true. But not all Pentecostals are like that. They will be judged by their works and if they are not works of love,?????????

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by renee819

Jason wrote,


First, no one is saved yet. Only when we hear, “Well done,” will we be certain.
And yes, I can give scripture.

.

At this point they are Believers. But Phillip knew better than to leave them as just Believers. So he baptized them in Jesus name, and he knew that Believers don't automatically receive the Holy Ghost as soon as they believe, so sent for Peter and John. They are still Believers, because they have not been born again.

I think a strong argument can be made that Acts 8 is not the normative experience for all believers for all time. It seems to be the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Samaritans just as it was poured out on the Jews in Acts 2, and the Gentiles in Acts 10. I asked you for scripture, and you went to the de facto oneness Pentecostal passage. Is it possible, just possible, that perhaps the way that oneness Pentecostals have interpreted the meaning of that scripture is wrong. I think we'd both agree that scripture does not contradict scripture, but rather interprets and compliments other scripture. The idea that someone is NOT saved at belief seems contradictory to these scriptures, just to name a few:

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mark 1:15 (KJV)

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16(KJV)

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12 (KJV)

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13 (KJV)

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29 (KJV)

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:24 (KJV)

35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
John 9:35-38 (KJV)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.John 20:31 (KJV)

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:15-18 (KJV)

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Acts 10:43 (KJV)

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36 (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:24 (KJV)

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:35 (KJV)

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40 (KJV)

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47 (KJV)

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
John 11:25-26 (KJV)

46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. John 12:46 (KJV)

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
John 14:12 (KJV)

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 3:19 (KJV)

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Luke 15:7 (KJV) Why should the angels rejoice if the repentant sinner is still heading to hell?

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Acts 15:7,11 (KJV)

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 16:31 (KJV)


The point of all of these scriptures is not "I'm right and you're wrong" because I do not think that simply posting scripture alone proves an argument. But my point in posting this scripture is that there are probably 200 more NT scriptures which emphasize faith or belief and equate that with salvation. There are ZERO scriptures that teach that tongues are necessary for salvation, that is a fact. You can make a case for salvation at baptism from Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:!6, and 1 Peter 3:21, but in order to arrive at that conclusion (that baptism is the point of salvation) one has to do hermeneutical gymnastics to reconcile justification by faith with such a belief. Especially those OP's who teach that baptism is the equivalent of circumcision for the believer (as in Colossians 2:11), for Romans 4:10 makes it quite plain Abraham was justified while he was in uncircumcision--so if we want to follow the type, we would have to say Abraham was saved prior to baptism. I think that the doctrine of justification makes it plan that God justifies the sinner based on their faith in Christ, not works, not even religious obedience. However, taking the whole of scripture, it is within reason to say that the quality of faith which saves, the faith of Abraham, is an obedient faith. Abraham was saved by faith, and because he had genuine faith, when God told him to be circumcised, he obeyed. When God challenged him to offer Isaac, he obeyed. Those were results of his saving faith, not the reason he was saved. Same thing with believers-if someone truly believes unto salvation, if they are justified by faith, they will desire to be obedient to Christ, which of course includes submitting to baptism.

As I've pointed out before, Acts 2:38 carries only 2 commands (not 3) 1)Repent 2)be baptized. That's all a sinner who believes can do. Beyond that they are dependent on God to keep His promise of filling them with His Spirit/regenerating them. Also, there is no mention of the 3,000 in Acts 2 speaking in tongues, nor the 5,000 in Acts 4. In fact of 21 conversions in Acts only 3 include tongues.

I just don't think there is good consistent scriptural evidence to support the initial evidence doctrine. Tongues isn't even mentioned in the epistles, except 1 Corinthians 12 & 14, and mostly that is in an unfavorable sense, in fact prophecy is said to be the greater gift, and love the greatest gift and supreme evidence of Christianity.

The book of 1 John gives several tests so that we can know if we are in the faith, these are social, theological, and moral tests. None of which include tongues.

We are further told that the fruit we are to bear is the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) and that all men will know we are His disciples by our love for one another, and our keeping of His commandments.

Again, there is absolutely NO SCRIPTURE that explicitly says someone must speak in tongues to be saved. There is scant implication of that in Acts 2,8, 10 and 19 but considering those verses in context and with the whole of scripture, it seems to be a tough sell IMO.

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I think a strong argument can be made that Acts 8 is not the normative experience for all believers for all time. It seems to be the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Samaritans just as it was poured out on the Jews in Acts 2, and the Gentiles in Acts 10. I asked you for scripture, and you went to the de facto oneness Pentecostal passage. Is it possible, just possible, that perhaps the way that oneness Pentecostals have interpreted the meaning of that scripture is wrong. I think we'd both agree that scripture does not contradict scripture, but rather interprets and compliments other scripture. The idea that someone is NOT saved at belief seems contradictory to these scriptures, just to name a few:

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mark 1:15 (KJV)

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16(KJV)

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12 (KJV)

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13 (KJV)

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29 (KJV)

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:24 (KJV)

35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
John 9:35-38 (KJV)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.John 20:31 (KJV)

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:15-18 (KJV)

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Acts 10:43 (KJV)

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36 (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:24 (KJV)

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:35 (KJV)

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40 (KJV)

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47 (KJV)

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
John 11:25-26 (KJV)

46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. John 12:46 (KJV)

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
John 14:12 (KJV)

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 3:19 (KJV)

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Luke 15:7 (KJV) Why should the angels rejoice if the repentant sinner is still heading to hell?

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Acts 15:7,11 (KJV)

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 16:31 (KJV)


The point of all of these scriptures is not "I'm right and you're wrong" because I do not think that simply posting scripture alone proves an argument. But my point in posting this scripture is that there are probably 200 more NT scriptures which emphasize faith or belief and equate that with salvation. There are ZERO scriptures that teach that tongues are necessary for salvation, that is a fact. You can make a case for salvation at baptism from Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:!6, and 1 Peter 3:21, but in order to arrive at that conclusion (that baptism is the point of salvation) one has to do hermeneutical gymnastics to reconcile justification by faith with such a belief. Especially those OP's who teach that baptism is the equivalent of circumcision for the believer (as in Colossians 2:11), for Romans 4:10 makes it quite plain Abraham was justified while he was in uncircumcision--so if we want to follow the type, we would have to say Abraham was saved prior to baptism. I think that the doctrine of justification makes it plan that God justifies the sinner based on their faith in Christ, not works, not even religious obedience. However, taking the whole of scripture, it is within reason to say that the quality of faith which saves, the faith of Abraham, is an obedient faith. Abraham was saved by faith, and because he had genuine faith, when God told him to be circumcised, he obeyed. When God challenged him to offer Isaac, he obeyed. Those were results of his saving faith, not the reason he was saved. Same thing with believers-if someone truly believes unto salvation, if they are justified by faith, they will desire to be obedient to Christ, which of course includes submitting to baptism.

As I've pointed out before, Acts 2:38 carries only 2 commands (not 3) 1)Repent 2)be baptized. That's all a sinner who believes can do. Beyond that they are dependent on God to keep His promise of filling them with His Spirit/regenerating them. Also, there is no mention of the 3,000 in Acts 2 speaking in tongues, nor the 5,000 in Acts 4. In fact of 21 conversions in Acts only 3 include tongues.

I just don't think there is good consistent scriptural evidence to support the initial evidence doctrine. Tongues isn't even mentioned in the epistles, except 1 Corinthians 12 & 14, and mostly that is in an unfavorable sense, in fact prophecy is said to be the greater gift, and love the greatest gift and supreme evidence of Christianity.

The book of 1 John gives several tests so that we can know if we are in the faith, these are social, theological, and moral tests. None of which include tongues.

We are further told that the fruit we are to bear is the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) and that all men will know we are His disciples by our love for one another, and our keeping of His commandments.

Again, there is absolutely NO SCRIPTURE that explicitly says someone must speak in tongues to be saved. There is scant implication of that in Acts 2,8, 10 and 19 but considering those verses in context and with the whole of scripture, it seems to be a tough sell IMO.

I was always told that the Gospels were just that the Gospels and that the Book of Acts was the "Gospel" but somebody forgot to explain that to Jesus.

Luke 7:22 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by navygoat1998

I was always told that the Gospels were just that the Gospels and that the Book of Acts was the "Gospel" but somebody forgot to explain that to Jesus.

Luke 7:22 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them.

Yeah, I've got to say I'm at a bit of a loss as to how most anything that Jesus said or the gospels writers wrote about salvation doesn't matter unless it fits the oneness paradigm. It's kind of like "Lets keep John 3:3-8, but throw out the rest of the chapter, and ignore John 1:12-13 (which actually is the same message as John 3:5), and lets emphasize Mark 16:17, but neglect Mark 16:16, Mark 1:15, and really everything else in Mark. Luke 24:44-47 is good, but don't bother bringing up Luke 15:7, or anything else in Luke." And to actually assert that someone could read the gospel of John and BELIEVE the gospel and get saved-God forbid.

PS-Navy, have you made yourself acceptable to God? The way to know is if you have spoken in tongues. If you haven't, then you are unacceptable, and need to work harder, repent even more, have more faith, etc so God will accept you. Just a helpful hint.

[votivesoul]

You know, there are a whole mess of people who aren't saved, no matter what they confess, what they have obeyed, or even what they have experienced, which is all past tense.

What about right now? Right now, where are they at? Who are they truly serving? How do they love? Do they abide, right now, in Christ or not, even if they once did at some other point in their life?

Tares are in every denomination, and in way too many local assemblies, too.

There is nothing new under the sun. Just make sure you aren't one of them!

[renee819]

I see this is going to be a long discussion, but that is great. I was getting bored, with some of the foolish questions on here. And the same thing over and over. So let's really get into the meat of this.

Jason wrote,

I think a strong argument can be made that Acts 8 is not the normative experience for all believers for all time.

True. But it was at the foundation of the Church and for about 100 years. And then what happened? Did Wolves come in like Paul told the Church, that they would? Absolutely!
Philosophers, joined the church, bringing in the Trinity doctrine, which led to the Catholic Church. Little by little God led His people out of the RCC, until 1900's, He then started pouring out the Holy Ghost, again. And then He opened their eye's to the truth of Oneness.

The Church was then back on the original foundation. But we made 2 mistakes. Maybe 3.
1. At first, if I understand, they sent the people out 2 by 2, and started house churches and the power of God was great. Then to be like the other churches, “give us a king, that we can be like other nations” they started a Denomination.

2. To start a Denomination, they had to put in, rules and laws. These became legalistic, man-made laws. Dragging some laws from the OT into the New. You can't do that, unless it is one of God's moral laws, like faith or love. But womens clothing? Wonder why not “pork?”
And now they became one of the arms of the Government, to charge Tithes and pay taxes, except for the “perks” of the Government to Pastors. Which is also what the Catholic Church did.

3. They got stuck there. Not crying out to God, for farther enlightenment.

And back to your statement, “I think a strong argument can be made that Acts 8 is not the normative experience for all believers for all time.”

Right! Because the Church went into 'darkness' and now more “Light” has been shown, but many still want to cling to, JUST BELIEVE. However, as I have shown, a BELIEVER, that does not go any farther, is just that, A BELIEVER. But they are not 'born again' until the obey “as the scriptures has shown.”

TO BE CONTINUED

[renee819]

Jason wrote,

It seems to be the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Samaritans just as it was poured out on the Jews in Acts 2, and the Gentiles in Acts 10. I asked you for scripture, and you went to the de facto oneness Pentecostal passage. Is it possible, just possible, that perhaps the way that oneness Pentecostals have interpreted the meaning of that scripture is wrong. I think we'd both agree that scripture does not contradict scripture, but rather interprets and compliments other scripture. The idea that someone is NOT saved at belief seems contradictory to these scriptures, just to name a few

:

If Oneness Pentecostals, have it wrong, please show me where. And YES! I absolutely believe that scripture must interpret scripture. With that in mind, I hope to show where the scriptures below are taken out of context.

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mark 1:15 (KJV)

Believe what gospel?
From Moses until the cross, the gospel was The Law.
From the time of Jesus teaching and John the Baptist, until the cross, the Gospel was. “REPENT, for the kingdom of heaven (kingdom within) is at hand. And the gospel of the kingdom could not come, could not be realized, until Jesus sent the Holy Ghost down.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16(KJV)

Maybe we can settle this a better way. In any of these scriptures did Jesus or anyone else say, “Just believe. Nothing else, just believe. Did you forget this part?

:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

A new language? So those that believe, will be baptized, and speak with new tongues. WHERE IS JUST BELIEVE?

I believe this scripture settles it all

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water

.

Just believe? Jesus knew that there would be many that came saying, that they believe in Jesus.

:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

“ He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said” not as man said, not just believe, but, as the scriptures has said. And this will take searching the scriptures, to see what is said. And what happens? “out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. “ which is the Holy Ghost. Which no one could receive in the form that we receive today, before Pentecost.

TO BE CONTINUED

[houston]

The law was NEVER the good news.

Good grief, lady.

[renee819]

Originally Posted by houston

The law was NEVER the good news.

Good grief, lady.

No! it wasn't. The Law was of the flesh, because the Holy Ghost was not yet given. And Paul said that it worked death in him.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God

.

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

One of the reasons that Jesus came, was to fulfill the Law, and it was in place until His death. And then He brought in the New Covenant, that started at Pentecost.

Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth

.

That is why no one was baptized in Jesus name while He was alive.
No one received the Holy Ghost until Pentecost.
That is why the “thief on the cross” would meet Jesus in Paradise. He repented, under the Law.
Jesus took away the Old Covenant at His death, so as to bring in the New Birth at Pentecost.

Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second

.

Did He abolish The Law? No! When a person receives the Holy Ghost the Law is placed in their heart.

And no, Houston, the Law is not the good news. The better hope, that turns the worst sinner into a new creature. That is the good news. Because they have Gods “divine nature” thru the Holy Ghost.

[renee819]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

You know, there are a whole mess of people who aren't saved, no matter what they confess, what they have obeyed, or even what they have experienced, which is all past tense.

What about right now? Right now, where are they at? Who are they truly serving? How do they love? Do they abide, right now, in Christ or not, even if they once did at some other point in their life?

Tares are in every denomination, and in way too many local assemblies, too.

There is nothing new under the sun. Just make sure you aren't one of them!

A big, AMEN!!!!