I wish preachers would....

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

I have read many times on this forum about elders, and obviously I have read in the NT about this as well....I suppose I am sitting here wondering if anyone has any experience being in a Church that operates with various ministries, like having active elders etc.?

I have been in the UPC for about 20yrs and have sat under three pastors, and of course have known many more...to my knowledge I know of none that operate with the level of accountability as is mentioned here in reference to elders and deacons etc. Every church I have encountered personally always has a pastor and he is the authority, all other ministries are subject to him...they don't enquire of one another or have meetings about thus and thus...what happens is that the pastor has the vision, he projects, and he gives the direction, everyone else, including the other ministers in the church are subject to him....they aske permission to do certain things etc., etc.

I would not even know how the multiple minister, level playing field works, I personally have never seen it...and I can't believe I am the only one on this forum. Generally speaking, regardless of denomination or doctrine...this is how it works, from what I have seen and experienced. If you want to preach....not only do you ask permission, the pastor must approve, and in some cases he may even give a time limit. All in all, the pastor is the head human authority, and of course, Jesus is to be the absolute authority in the Church. This is the only way I have ever seen it.

I have done my own studies about various doctrines that we are taught in the UPC and some I agree with, some I don't. Ultimately, however, the system is set up the way it is, and is bigger then any one person. Conflict of ideas usually end up just being disagreements with no real resolve...after all...the leadership and the pastor are going to do what they feel to do...regardless. I have never seen an "Open Forum", where things can be discussed in a safe and respectfull setting....never. In my opinion, that is why people come to forums like this, to discuss what in many cases would be taboo in an open setting, no matter how professional the presentation.

Some issues are horses that have been beaten...killed, and then dug up and beaten again with no resolve whatsoever. things like hair length, tithing, and pants are just a few examples of things discusses ad nauseum with no one budging from either side of the argument or issue.

We used to be Baptist. The church we attended had five deacons/elders. They met with the pastor to discuss any serious plans for the church body. Also the church met regularly and voted on anything that involved an investment of finances or required change. It was a good democratic system and while you can't make everyone happy all the time it worked really well most of the time.

I've never seen anything like that in the UPC/Apostolic church which has always been the single pastor/complete authority model you describe.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

I have read many times on this forum about elders, and obviously I have read in the NT about this as well....I suppose I am sitting here wondering if anyone has any experience being in a Church that operates with various ministries, like having active elders etc.?

I have been in the UPC for about 20yrs and have sat under three pastors, and of course have known many more...to my knowledge I know of none that operate with the level of accountability as is mentioned here in reference to elders and deacons etc. Every church I have encountered personally always has a pastor and he is the authority, all other ministries are subject to him...they don't enquire of one another or have meetings about thus and thus...what happens is that the pastor has the vision, he projects, and he gives the direction, everyone else, including the other ministers in the church are subject to him....they aske permission to do certain things etc., etc.

I would not even know how the multiple minister, level playing field works, I personally have never seen it...and I can't believe I am the only one on this forum. Generally speaking, regardless of denomination or doctrine...this is how it works, from what I have seen and experienced. If you want to preach....not only do you ask permission, the pastor must approve, and in some cases he may even give a time limit. All in all, the pastor is the head human authority, and of course, Jesus is to be the absolute authority in the Church. This is the only way I have ever seen it.

I have done my own studies about various doctrines that we are taught in the UPC and some I agree with, some I don't. Ultimately, however, the system is set up the way it is, and is bigger then any one person. Conflict of ideas usually end up just being disagreements with no real resolve...after all...the leadership and the pastor are going to do what they feel to do...regardless. I have never seen an "Open Forum", where things can be discussed in a safe and respectfull setting....never. In my opinion, that is why people come to forums like this, to discuss what in many cases would be taboo in an open setting, no matter how professional the presentation.

Some issues are horses that have been beaten...killed, and then dug up and beaten again with no resolve whatsoever. things like hair length, tithing, and pants are just a few examples of things discusses ad nauseum with no one budging from either side of the argument or issue.

Well Lemon, this is why many people leave that church system. Pastors will give their standard reason..."They left because they don't want to live for God". Sometimes that is the reason, but it is not the reason every time as pastors want the sheeple to believe. The Pastors who say this in every case are not telling the people the truth.

Issues like hair length and tithing will come up time and time again because the scripture simply is not there to support UPC/Apostolic views on this.

It's usually taboo because people do not like having their name smeared in the community. They do not want their character to be assassinated..and it does happen.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

I have read many times on this forum about elders, and obviously I have read in the NT about this as well....I suppose I am sitting here wondering if anyone has any experience being in a Church that operates with various ministries, like having active elders etc.?

I have been in the UPC for about 20yrs and have sat under three pastors, and of course have known many more...to my knowledge I know of none that operate with the level of accountability as is mentioned here in reference to elders and deacons etc. Every church I have encountered personally always has a pastor and he is the authority, all other ministries are subject to him...they don't enquire of one another or have meetings about thus and thus...what happens is that the pastor has the vision, he projects, and he gives the direction, everyone else, including the other ministers in the church are subject to him....they aske permission to do certain things etc., etc.

I would not even know how the multiple minister, level playing field works, I personally have never seen it...and I can't believe I am the only one on this forum. Generally speaking, regardless of denomination or doctrine...this is how it works, from what I have seen and experienced. If you want to preach....not only do you ask permission, the pastor must approve, and in some cases he may even give a time limit. All in all, the pastor is the head human authority, and of course, Jesus is to be the absolute authority in the Church. This is the only way I have ever seen it.

I have done my own studies about various doctrines that we are taught in the UPC and some I agree with, some I don't. Ultimately, however, the system is set up the way it is, and is bigger then any one person. Conflict of ideas usually end up just being disagreements with no real resolve...after all...the leadership and the pastor are going to do what they feel to do...regardless. I have never seen an "Open Forum", where things can be discussed in a safe and respectfull setting....never. In my opinion, that is why people come to forums like this, to discuss what in many cases would be taboo in an open setting, no matter how professional the presentation.

Some issues are horses that have been beaten...killed, and then dug up and beaten again with no resolve whatsoever. things like hair length, tithing, and pants are just a few examples of things discusses ad nauseum with no one budging from either side of the argument or issue.

This is the only Apostolic group I know of that has experience in Biblical Eldership. Their Church is also the only UPC type Church that accurately teaches the foundation doctrines of Jesus Christ.

http://www.gloriouschurch.com/

[samuelofisrael]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Chapter and verse that teaches Elders and Pastors are two different offices? New Testament please.

I said nothing about an "office," in fact, the elders are part of the church's congregational ministry. They are permitted to teach if they are so gifted. A "pastor" [one of the elders] is part of the five fold ministry if a truely called and gifted man anointed of the Holy Spirit.

As far as the FIVE FOLD ministry is concerned:

Eph 4:11-13

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Paul further states: " ... are all apostles, ....?"

1 Co 12:28-29

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

In the case of "elders" we find: "ruling well," "worthy of double honor," "apt to teach," ordained of the apostles.

In the setting of DIVINE ORDER in the NT Church the "apostles AND the elders" are mentioned together. It is always a plurality, never the thought of a one man rule that is so prevelant in many congregations, especially those of a certain doctrinal conviction.

As far as a different office is concerned, it would seem [from Holy Writ] that the Five Fold is ministries chosen by the Holy Spirit exclusively but the plurality of the elders are ordained of the fellowship which recognizes the anointing of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

Paul catatorically states:

1 Co 12:28-13:1

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Surely we must see a distinction between the God chosen FIVE FOLD ministry and the ministry of gifts of healing, tongues and interpretation, etc. Many of the charismata can be operative in the NT Church but those who have those gifts [if they in fact do] are not necessarily pastors, teachers or apostles. Even those who operate in the charismata may not be an elder tho it is not impossible.

A pastor is surely one of the elders of the congregation but the "elders" are not therefore the pastor per se tho the elders can teach and be worthy of double honor should "he" labor in the Word and Doctrine.

Is there a "distinction" between the God called FIVE FOLD and the eldership? I would say so gauging by what ALL is taught in the NT.

Acts 14:23 points out the ordination of elders by the congregation. As in the case of "deacons," [helpers], they were chosen of the church.

Ac 6:3

3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

One [if discerning] can see the distinction between a God called man to the APOSTOLIC FIVE FOLD ministry and deacons or even elders. It is possible that an elder can rise to the ministry of pastor if so chosen by the congregation.

In the Acts narrative we find, "apostles AND elders" mentioned at least six times as a distinction. But in the case of the Apostle Peter who was both called to the FIVE FOLD ministry, he too was one of the "elders" as I have mentioned.

One of the FIVE FOLD can be and it would follow that they are of the eldership but the "elders" would not necessarily be of the FIVE FOLD ministry. There are distinctions in all the minstries, talents, gifts, callings, anointings.

Is there a distinction between a "pastor" and the "elders" its effectual outworking and calling?

Surely there is, both as revealed in Holy Writ and common practice. Is there a distinction in gifts? Yes. Are all apostles? Are all teachers? Are all elders? Do all have the gifts of healing? The answere CANNOT be YES but NO. So is there a difference between those gifted men called of God as pastors and those ordained as "elders." There are congregations today that have elders. Elders as in the plurality, never a congregational one man rule.

Finally, a pastor can be one of the elders as in the case of Peter. But an elder is not necessarily a pastor or an apostle or an evangelist or a teacher but can have ability to labor in doctrine and the Word. Distinctions, plurality of elders, differing giftings, FIVE FOLD ministry, deacons are all taught as APOSTOLIC NT ministries. Why would we want it any differently?

ONLY THE SCRIPTURES CORRECTLY EXEGETED IS THE WORD OF GOD.

[Michael The Disciple]

A pastor is surely one of the elders of the congregation but the "elders" are not therefore the pastor per se tho the elders can teach and be worthy of double honor should "he" labor in the Word and Doctrine.

This is what I am questioning. You have no proof at all that the Pastor and the Elder are two different things. Last time I looked the word PASTOR was not in the New Testament.

Can you give the Pastors duties and qualifications by New Testament scripture?

[samuelofisrael]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This is what I am questioning. You have no proof at all that the Pastor and the Elder are two different things. Last time I looked the word PASTOR was not in the New Testament.

Can you give the Pastors duties and qualifications by New Testament scripture?

Actually Paul gives the duties and the qualifications in that God has ordained them.

I believe I have pointed out the distinction [in Scripture] that a pastor CAN be an elder but an elder is not necessarily THE pastor. Elders "shepard, rule, can teach is so able and oversee," but that in and of itself does not make them the pastor in the sense of the God ordained FIVE FOLD MINISTRY.

Eph 4:10-11

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some apostles; some prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

The giving of these gifted men is by the LORD not of congregational ordination tho the fellowship can recognize the gifting and call these men to minister to them.

PASTOR:

NT:4166

poimeen, poimenos, ho

a herdsman, especially a shepherd

a. properly: Mt 9:36
b. metaphorically, the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church, Jn 10:16

ELDERS:

NT:4245

presbuteros, presbutera, presbuteron

elder

1. of age
a. where two persons are spoken of, the elder: Lk 15:25
b. universally, advanced in life, an elder, a senior:
2. a term of rank or office; as such borne by,
a. among the Jews, -- Mt 16:21
.... those who in the separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice: Lk 7:3

b. among Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches):

Ac 11:30 -- Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:

30 Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.

Seems to be a distinction as indicated by the Text. I know elders of congregations that hardly if ever teach but they do oversee the affairs of the fellowship in other matters and may even possess a charismatic gifting.

For those who see the Biblical importance of plurality, that should suffice. If they wish to quibble about a "pastor" and the "elders" being one and the same, so be it. In the real world functioning of a congregation the "offices" or ministries reveal themselves in manifestation regardless of our present thinking. But, if Scripture is addressed, the difference appears in both the Book of Acts and in other passages. Peter, as an Apostle, stated he could not be concerned with serving tables but had to concentrate on other matters. Ac. 6:2. The deacons chosen by the people were to oversee that function.

Is "pastor" and "elder" two distinct functioning ministries in its practical and Biblical meaning? I believe the answer is YES. If you see it differently we would have a slight disagreement.

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This is what I am questioning. You have no proof at all that the Pastor and the Elder are two different things. Last time I looked the word PASTOR was not in the New Testament.

Can you give the Pastors duties and qualifications by New Testament scripture?

Maybe just give us a scripture where any one man is ever actually called a Pastor?

Many are addressed by many a title in the NT, yet no one is ever called a Pastor. Seems to me there should be at least a few since we are SO sure this single Pastor hierarchy is so biblical.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Maybe just give us a scripture where any one man is ever actually called a Pastor?

Many are addressed by many a title in the NT, yet no one is ever called a Pastor. Seems to me there should be at least a few since we are SO sure this single Pastor hierarchy is so biblical.

[samuelofisrael]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Maybe just give us a scripture where any one man is ever actually called a Pastor?

Many are addressed by many a title in the NT, yet no one is ever called a Pastor. Seems to me there should be at least a few since we are SO sure this single Pastor hierarchy is so biblical.

The fact that Paul itemizes "pastors" seems to indicate there were in fact men who were called and known as "pastor." Here again, the single pastor rule is not a NT doctrine thus the plurality of eldership, men who could also oversee, rule well, apt to teach and monitor the spiritual health of the fellowship. There is no NT rule that a single pastor rules the congregation.

More than one "pastor" has been the rule of a number of congregations. The larger the work, the greater need for more than a single pastor. I do not favor the "one man" rule so evident today in many groups, not only UPC or other Pentecostal type gatherings. Some may have "token" elders or an Associate Pastor who really acts as the "stooge" for the man who has billed hmself as the main event. Then too, there is the recognition of greater gifting in some men above that of other men in the exegetical/preaching ministry. Some have a greater gift of pulpit exposition than other pastors in the same congregation. Naturally these men are more sought after than others but not more an elder or one of the pastors.

If its a plurality of "pastors" you are citing, I am in agreement. However, so many fellowships are doing well to have one gifted man to minister to them. But here too, that pastor/elder should allow others to minister as the anointing presents itself. This is more common in so called "reformation theology" gatherings than Pentecostal fellowships who seem to favor the "one man rule" ministry. They are other than APOSTOLIC in such permissiveness. A pastor in such a work who imagines he is supreme or the only one who is anointed of God may be deceiving himself.

ONLY THE SCRIPTURES RIGHTLY EXEGETED IS THE WORD OF GOD.

[Nitehawk013]

Ok. I agree with that.