This thread is interesting...this topic of Unity was yesterdays main message by one of the ministers in my local church. Unity is important, but I fear that in some cases it is over simplified. Unity takes time, effort, and most of all, in spiritual cases, God. This can not be rushed, forced, or manipulated. In my experience, much patience is required to see unity in an assembly.
The question that has been in my mind for some years now is the difference between unity and uniformity. Anotherwards, IMHO it is possible to have unity amoung a people while the same people also have a sense of individuality or diversity. Conversely, I believe it is impossible to have diversity in an atmosphere that requires uniformity. I suppose we could have a thread talking about this extensively.
At any rate, the message was good and important. The only snag came when the minister brought up one word...balance. He exclaimed how that balance is a word and idea that originates in eastern religion and is creeping in to american society and yes..the church. He stated that we should not be seeking balance but instead unity...because seeking balance means we are trying to do / live on our own.
Naturally, this part I disagreed with totally. I find it interesting how "balance" is automatically tied to eastern religion and philosophy when it is clearly written in the Word. Balance did not originate in Asia...it originated with God. At any rate, what is more interesting is that most of us Apostolics talk extensively about saving ourselves from this untoward generation, and sanctification, and Holiness...but then berate something like balance and attribute the striving for such things as works.
Anyway, while I know unity is Biblical, important, and necessary, I wonder sometimes if we sacrifice the real need for balance by burning ourselves out and each other for this common goal of unity that in some cases could be reached far easier if balance were not sacrificed on the alter...
He stated that we should not be seeking balance but instead unity...because seeking balance means we are trying to do / live on our own.
Naturally, this part I disagreed with totally. I find it interesting how "balance" is automatically tied to eastern religion and philosophy when it is clearly written in the Word. Balance did not originate in Asia...it originated with God. At any rate, what is more interesting is that most of us Apostolics talk extensively about saving ourselves from this untoward generation, and sanctification, and Holiness...but then berate something like balance and attribute the striving for such things as works.
Anyway, while I know unity is Biblical, important, and necessary, I wonder sometimes if we sacrifice the real need for balance by burning ourselves out and each other for this common goal of unity that in some cases could be reached far easier if balance were not sacrificed on the alter...
Just wondering which scripture reference you mention "clearly written in the Word" on the topic of balance in relationship to the topic of unity?
I myself personally think that moderation would be a much better word to use.... Philippians 4:5 "Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand."
Good Point - I apologize for the rambling nature of my post...I was not trying to compare unity with balance...although it seemed that way at the closing of my post. What I should have been more clear about was that unity is often taught in regards to a mission, or mission statement / goals.
Having come from a very program / goal oriented church, I can tell you that balance was the last thing any of us leaders in that church had. Many of us were sold out to the vision to double the assembly, teach Bible studies, etc., etc., but many other people and responsibilites were sacrificed to accomplish the "unity".
At any rate, I don't have my Bible right here with me, but I do remember a scripture that addresses the false balance and how it is an abomination. It can be a logical conclusion that if there is a such thing as a false balance, then there must also be a right balance - and of course the scripture you posted about moderation is also a good example.
Good Point - I apologize for the rambling nature of my post...I was not trying to compare unity with balance...although it seemed that way at the closing of my post. What I should have been more clear about was that unity is often taught in regards to a mission, or mission statement / goals.
Having come from a very program / goal oriented church, I can tell you that balance was the last thing any of us leaders in that church had. Many of us were sold out to the vision to double the assembly, teach Bible studies, etc., etc., but many other people and responsibilites were sacrificed to accomplish the "unity".
At any rate, I don't have my Bible right here with me, but I do remember a scripture that addresses the false balance and how it is an abomination. It can be a logical conclusion that if there is a such thing as a false balance, then there must also be a right balance - and of course the scripture you posted about moderation is also a good example.
Prov 11:1
A false balance is abomination to the Lord: but a just weight is his delight.
In context, the "balance" here is referring to a measurement device. However, I do see the point in your post.
Like you said, Unit is not uniformity. There can be unity in diversity.
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...Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ...(Acts 20:21)
In my opinion, it is God's will for His people to have unity among themselves. Because we are human, I doubt we ever will. It bothered the Apostle Paul that there were divisions in the Church at Corinth. He addressed this 1 Corinthians 1:10-13 and 3:1-5.
In Ephesians 4:1-16 Paul exhorted the folks in Ephesus to endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit. He says that we all have the same Lord and we have all been placed/baptized into one body by the Holy Spirit in verses 4-6. He also mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:13 that we were all placed/baptized into one Body by the Holy Spirit. In verses 11-16 Paul says that God has placed apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers in the Body until we come in the unity of the faith and grow up into perfection. That's why I think we will always have those 5 offices in the church because we will not reach perfection/maturity/completion until the rapture.
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Sam also known as Jim Ellis
Apostolic in doctrine
Pentecostal in experience
Charismatic in practice
Non-denominational in affiliation
Inter-denominational in fellowship
I think unity is more of an attitude than anything else. If we recognize that we have differences of opinion among us but respect one another and accept them as brothers and sisters, and cooperate with one another, in my opinion, that is unity.
Let me give you a couple of examples.
1. I belong to a group called FGBMFI (Full Gospel Business Men's Fellowship International). At a recent breakfast meeting, our president asked us all to tell which church we belong to. We had 12 different churches represented there that day, yet we could fellowship and worship God together. One of the men there that morning goes to a Roman Catholic Church. He was baptized Roman Catholic and educated Roman Catholic, and believes Roman Catholic doctrine. Yet he is saved and has been baptized in the Holy Spirit. He and I don't agree theologically on several things, yet we consider each other brothers in Christ. At FGBMFI we have had speakers from different denominations including Roman Catholic and Baptist. To me this is a good example of the unity of the Body.
2. Ordinarily on Wednesday mornings I attend a prayer meeting at the First Presbyterian Church in Hamilton, Ohio. This meeting has been going on for 50 years. The woman who leads it is 92 years old. I don't know where all they have met over the years but they have been there in that building for quite a few years. About 20-25 people meet there each week and maybe one or two of them are members of that church. The rest of us come from several different churches. When the current pastor came to that church as pastor, the group had already been meeting there for some time. He didn't know much about us and I've heard him say, "I didn't know if you would lay hands on me and pray over me in tongues and hand me a snake, or what." Pastor John has not, as far as I know, been baptized in the Spirit. He does come down to the prayer meeting once in a while, sits in a chair and asks us to pray for him. He has done this when his brother was sick. He has done this when the church was facing a financial crisis. And he has done this when he was seeking wisdom on certain issues. Nobody has ever handed him a snake but they do pray over him in tongues and prophecy. To me this prayer meeting is an example of the unity of the Body.
3. Last summer, we had a prayer meeting on Main Street in downtown Hamilton, Ohio. Ministers from various churches/organizations/denominations prayed for the city and for a move of God there. The prayer meeting was organized by H-HOP (Hamilton House of Prayer, a few people who meet in various places to pray for Hamilton) and by Offerings/Holy Grounds Cafe (a restaurant ministry a couple doors down from the Gazebo and park where the prayer meeting was held). I posted a link for that here last year. I was one of the persons who prayed. I prayed Psalm 51 for the city of Hamilton, for Butler County, for Hamilton County, and for SW Ohio. The man who heads up H-HOP attends the Hamilton Dream Center where I go. He and I are elders there. The couple who operate Holy Grounds Cafe are Felix and Kim. He is an ordained Baptist minister. She is ordained in our church. I was one of the ministers who signed her ordination papers and who laid hands on her at her ordination). I honestly don't know if either or both of them have been baptized in the Spirit. This is another example, in my opinion, of the unity of the Body.
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Sam also known as Jim Ellis
Apostolic in doctrine
Pentecostal in experience
Charismatic in practice
Non-denominational in affiliation
Inter-denominational in fellowship
In my opinion, it is God's will for His people to have unity among themselves. Because we are human, I doubt we ever will. It bothered the Apostle Paul that there were divisions in the Church at Corinth. He addressed this 1 Corinthians 1:10-13 and 3:1-5.
In Ephesians 4:1-16 Paul exhorted the folks in Ephesus to endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit. He says that we all have the same Lord and we have all been placed/baptized into one body by the Holy Spirit in verses 4-6. He also mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:13 that we were all placed/baptized into one Body by the Holy Spirit. In verses 11-16 Paul says that God has placed apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers in the Body until we come in the unity of the faith and grow up into perfection. That's why I think we will always have those 5 offices in the church because we will not reach perfection/maturity/completion until the rapture.
So, Jesus asked for unity (John 17; note especially v. 20 -- He's praying for you), it is in accordance with God's will, and it won't happen. Will you be removing 1 John 5:14-15 from your Bible?
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
So, Jesus asked for unity (John 17; note especially v. 20 -- He's praying for you), it is in accordance with God's will, and it won't happen. Will you be removing 1 John 5:14-15 from your Bible?
wasn't planning on removing any verses from 1 John 5 from my Bible.
God's will does not always get done.
God limits Himself by several things. One of them is our free will. God wills that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2: 4; Peter 3:9) but not everyone will.
wasn't planning on removing any verses from 1 John 5 from my Bible.
God's will does not always get done.
God limits Himself by several things. One of them is our free will. God wills that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2: 4; Peter 3:9) but not everyone will.
But you don't believe the promise in 1 John 5:14-15 will be kept. Why not remove that passage?
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
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