The Resolution of Matthew 28:18 and Acts 2:38

Hi brother Blume

Good to see you been long time. I do understand what you are saying re the trinitarians as I was one. Yes they have told me they believe in one God not three and that Jesus is God but they differ on the Father and Holy Ghost . They call them persons three persons in fact and they dont seem to understand that the Holy Sprit is not a person nor that the Father is not a person I think sir they need the baptism of the Holy Spirit so that this can be revealed to them and that is what happened to me a revelation of Jesus name truth and now the whole bible I can see that God's name is Jesus and that there is one God only and not three. They seem to be mixed up in their use of terminology . Anyway I do find arguing with them does not help either but the Word of God is still the best way to go and lots of love for them Let them see a change in our lives and that what we have is real . Let them see Jesus in us That is one of the things that helped me I watched for a long time those in truth and I saw the love of Jesus in them and I wanted what they had so bad that I began to search the scriptures for myself as well and I feel that Jesus knew the sincere desire of my heart and He led me to those who could help me with this and I came into truth after spending many years as trinitarian. Praise the Lord!!

God bless brother Blume
sister Phyllis

Originally Posted by Bruce Klein

Is Martin Luther or John Wesley or Jonathan Edwards in hell or heaven? I don't know where they are. I hope God's grace and mercy kept them from hell. I do know that YOU are responsible for the truth, because you know the truth from these forums, so when you face Jesus you don't have any excuses.

Hello Bruce, look fwould you be kind enough to tell me how you define the gospel. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but do you or do you not beleive that a perosn must speak in tongues and also be baptised with the 'Lord Jesus Christ' formula to be saved? If you reoply YES, then Wesley, Luther and Edwards are in hell, as they denied the gospel as you defined it. However if you reply that people can be saved without speaking in tongues and that baptism isnt necessary for salvation, so that people who're baptised with the wrong formula or even sprinkled as babies can be saved, then the consequence of that Bruce would be that you'd be rejecting most Oneness theology as false. So please do answer this question and we can continue.

Originally Posted by Bruce Klein

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5

This passage was not written in the future tense, as if it were a prophetic passage. The verb forms in John 3:3-6 are present and not future tenses, and so Nicodemus isn’t here being told by Jesus to get himself saved by being baptised; as this was a command given in a year’s time only after Christ's resurrection! Rather Nicodemus is here told to get saved right now! This is why the verb “lego” (I say) in verse 5 is a present tense (indicative, present and active). Jesus is here commanding Nicodemus to do so something right now, and not in the distant future to secure his salvation.

So if John 3:5 indeed refers to Jesus name baptism, as some have supposed, then Nicodemus is being told to do something which was not yet given to the church! Christian baptism wasn’t given to the church until after Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection from the dead (Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:16) which it signifies by the way. But how Nicodemus could get saved by doing something, which was not yet given as you claim Bruce? And how does the verb at John 3:5, which is a present tense, really refer to a future and as yet still prophetic (future) action as your here implying?

Originally Posted by Sister Phyllis

S JESUS GOD?
JESUS IS GOD

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9).

sister phyllis

Phyllis, I think that you might have here ignored the words “bodily” (KJV), or ‘in a bodily form’ in some other Bible versions. Because this verse is actually saying that Christ (verse 8), is not simply himself God (YHWH), for Paul naturally takes it for granted that his readers already understand that obvious fact. But rather Paul is here stating that Christ is specifically God (YHWH), but in a bodily form or presence upon this earth.

Secondly: please explain this passage, as the flesh or humanity of Jesus being the Son of God, who is then indwelt by the deity of Jesus, which they’ll explain as the Father. So the pronoun ‘him,’ is explained as the flesh of Jesus, which is then indwelt by the deity, or God-part (Spirit) of Jesus. Thus they effectively have two Jesus’ in this verse, Jesus the God and also Jesus the man, who is indwelt by God the God, which thereby makes Jesus the man God incarnate.

Thirdly: The word "Godhead," or ‘deity’ in the Greek, is now taken to be something totally separate from the "Him" who is mentioned in this verse. This pronoun ‘Him’ is then often likened to a bottle in Oneness churches, and the "Godhead" (or deity), which is the Spirit of God, is then likened milk. So this verse is now explained as the Son (the flesh or non-Deity) having the Father who is also called the Holy Spirit (the deity) actually inside of his human body. In the same way that milk is actually contained inside a milk bottle, whilst at the same time, the milk and the bottle each remain distinct from each other. But the problem which we now encounter is that this verse has now been twisted completely around, and used to wrongly affirm that the Son, who is the "Him" speaker of in the third word of this verse is NOT GOD (YHWH). He is in Oneness theology merely a human body, a mere container in whom the true God then indwells, as milk infills a milk bottle.

So to conclude, when Oneness people such as Phyllis use this verse, remember that they actually regard the "Him" who is the Son in this verse, as something other the deity (YHWH), even though they’ll often refer to ‘him’ as God or as deity. Oneness folk will often talk about the “almighty God in Christ.” But this almighty God is actually the Father, to whom they ascribe full deity to alone. But to the Son of God, they claim that he is not actually the almighty God, but as he merely has the almighty God living inside of him, he is really a man ‘empowered by God,’ even if he does not possess any divine attributes such as omnipotence, omnipresence and creatorship himself (as the Son).

However, as you can’t dwell inside of yourself, therefore the Father alone is regarded as deity in Oneness theology. The Son or Christ is not actually deity himself, but as he has the almighty God dwelling inside of him, (John 14:9-10). This allows us to refer to Christ as God, even if the ‘Son’ part of Christ in Oneness theology isn’t actually God himself, but is actually a man (the flesh) within whom the deity then resides.

[mfblume]

Hi Sister Phyllis.

God bless you, too!

The issue of Godhead is something that people with closed, made-up minds will never truly see, unless they have the triuth of oneness. But many trinitarains do have the Holy Ghost. And they still cannot see this truth. This is because, I believe, even when one has the Holy Ghost one still needs to be aware that the Spirit comes to lead us to all truth. That means we all have more learning to do. So, having the Holy Ghost does not necessarily mean one will definitely see truth. One requires an open heart before the indwelling Spirit can teach us correctly.

Some believe they do not have the genuine Holy Ghost, although they speak in tongues, but that it is a devil. I could never say that. Jesus warned us expressly that accusation of a work of the Spirit as being the devil is something God will not forgive. So I wholeheartedly disagree that trinitarians do not have the Holy Ghost although they speak in tongues.

We each have to pray everyday that God correct us if we are wrong, and remain open to the thought we probably all need correction somewhere. Trinitarians who have God's Spirit may be open, too, but may not have yet come across a oneness person who could show them the way more perfectly in love and kindness. Acquilla and Priscilla had compassion and wisdom and successfully showed Apollos the way more perfectly.

I know a man who was trinitarian and was approached 40 years ago about oneness, but the oneness person had a harsh spirit. It was rejected. THen when I spoke with this trinitarian for several months and acknowledged his revelatory experiences with God, one day the Godhead issue came up. Because I had honoured his thoughts in other areas, and then commented how I did not accept the trinity teaching, he had an ear to listen to what I had to say, and accepted oneness lock, stock and barrel! To this day he has persauded many trinitarians to accept the oneness truth. But the harsh brother who approached him 40 years ago was unsuccessful in helping him see oneness. This has been a bad problem for years amongst the apostolic movement. Harsh attitudes.

Thank you bro Blume for what you have said here I am a prayer intercessor so I am going to pray for our brother here and just be loving to him in the Lord as I feel that I have done all I know to do to explain the Oneness of God and the name of God . Iron Bladder know that you are loved and I will be praing for you expecially that some day somehow You will see this wonderful turth that we have found

God bless
sister phyllis

Originally Posted by Trouvere

If any name would have been enough then why did Johns converts have to be rebaptized?

This is an extremely intelligent question which you’ve asked Trouvere and one worthy of an honest answer, so I’ll do the best that I can to answer. Christian baptism signifies both surrender to God in full recognition of our complete inability to save ourselves from our sins and also identification with Christ in his death and resurrection. God gave Christian baptism to us at Matthew 28 and Mark 16 as a direct symbol of this! It therefore identifies us with Christ. John’s baptism was purely one of repentance alone, it doesn’t identify us with God and neither does it symbolise Christ’s resurrection from the dead. John’s baptism is therefore a mere shadow of Christian baptism and as such was replaced by Christian baptism into Christ.

Originally Posted by Sister Phyllis

Hi brother Blume

Good to see you been long time. I do understand what you are saying re the trinitarians as I was one. Yes they have told me they believe in one God not three and that Jesus is God but they differ on the Father and Holy Ghost . They call them persons three persons in fact and they dont seem to understand that the Holy Sprit is not a person nor that the Father is not a person I think sir they need the baptism of the Holy Spirit so that this can be revealed to them and that is what happened to me a revelation of Jesus name truth and now the whole bible I can see that God's name is Jesus and that there is one God only and not three. They seem to be mixed up in their use of terminology . Anyway I do find arguing with them does not help either but the Word of God is still the best way to go and lots of love for them Let them see a change in our lives and that what we have is real . Let them see Jesus in us That is one of the things that helped me I watched for a long time those in truth and I saw the love of Jesus in them and I wanted what they had so bad that I began to search the scriptures for myself as well and I feel that Jesus knew the sincere desire of my heart and He led me to those who could help me with this and I came into truth after spending many years as trinitarian. Praise the Lord!!

God bless brother Blume



sister Phyllis

Firstly, Trinitarians don’t believe in three Gods, as that’s tritheism which is an ancient heresy. Secondly, what do you mean that the Holy Spirit and the Father are not persons, this statement shocked me, do you mean that they are impersonal, or what do you mean? Thirdly, hundreds of Millions of Trinitarian Pentecostals and Charismatics do claim to speak in tongues today, so are you saying that the approximate 60 million or so Roman Catholic Pentecostals who speak in tongues are or aren’t saved? Are you also saying that the Assemblies of God and other Trinitarian tongues speakers amongst the Methodists, Anglicans and Baptists who probably number at least 200 Million are or aren’t saved? If you reply the latter; i.e. that they’re not saved, then please would you BRIEFLY define the gospel for me by outlining in say 10 lines (maximum) the way of salvation. Fourthly, I’m not a classical Trinitarian becasue I reject the doctrine of the eternal generation of the Son (but not eternal Sonship), Christ is Yahweh, but it was the Son who incarnated as Jesus (1st John 3:8) with a hypostatic union of the two natures (deity and humanity) and not the Father as Oneness teaches. Finally, I’d certainly agree that God’s name is Jesus, however this is because Jesus is the Son who was sent into the world by the Father (John 16:28). Jesus is not the name of the Father. If you do believe this then please start a new thread with this title and I’ll certainly join you there to discuss it, as I’m restricted (being kind of intimidating to Oneness folk I guess), so I can’t start a thread with that title myself.

Originally Posted by mfblume

The issue of Godhead is something that people with closed, made-up minds will never truly see, unless they have the triuth of oneness.

And let me guess, this is an open minded statement in your opinion?

Originally Posted by Sister Phyllis

Thank you bro Blume for what you have said here I am a prayer intercessor so I am going to pray for our brother here and just be loving to him in the Lord as I feel that I have done all I know to do to explain the Oneness of God and the name of God . Iron Bladder know that you are loved and I will be praing for you expecially that some day somehow You will see this wonderful turth that we have found

God bless
sister phyllis

if I'm loved as you claim, then why is Praxeas about to boot me out of this forum? if you truly love me are you going to do something about this?