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  #11  
Old 12-27-2011, 07:04 AM
Nitehawk013 Nitehawk013 is offline
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Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel

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Originally Posted by Titus2woman View Post
Well... I rather just have someone ask me to throw money at them while they preach than tell me how I will be struck dead instantly and spend eternity in a tormenting hell for robbing God if I do not allow them to extort 10% of my families gross income plus offerings.


Amen!
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  #12  
Old 12-27-2011, 07:08 AM
Nitehawk013 Nitehawk013 is offline
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Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel

I wish I could say I had never seen this nonsense, but I have on at least 3 or 4 occasions at my church. 2 times I think by the same Pastor of a UPC church in San Diego who was preaching for us.

Then another time on Father's Day by another Pastor. FATHER'S DAY! We didn't get a sermon about how important it is to be a godly father. Nope...we got "you should get teh right spirit and GIVE sacrificially" followed by the Pastor laying money on the altar and STRONGLY implying that everyone should do the same if they wanted to be BLESSED.

I wonder if these men realize how disgustingly similar this practice is to Indulgences? Buying blessings from God, etc.
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  #13  
Old 12-27-2011, 11:26 PM
Jason B Jason B is offline
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Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel

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Originally Posted by Jason Badejo View Post
Good post, and the bolded is the point that sprung the thread. How in the world can someone work personal finances into the Lord's prayer? I am completely stunned.
What is disturbing to me is that there seems to be no real concern for the real meaning of the text. To read personal finances into the Lord's prayer is to have complete disregard for the context itself.

The Lord’s prayer has essentially nothing to do with financial debt. To read personal finances into it is to completely disregard the clear meaning of the text. To go a step further and claim that financial dominion is at stake in the believers life is nothing short of psychological manipulation. The word debt in Matthew 6:12 plainly refers to sin, not any kind of financial debt. This point is further driven home when at the conclusion of the Lord’s Prayer Jesus expounds on verse 12 in verses 14-15 which read 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matt 6:14-15 (KJV) The word that Jesus uses for trespasses in v.14&15 in explaining the meaning of v.12 is the word paraptoma, translated trespass, fall, fault, sin. For example it is the word used in Ephesisans 1:7 “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.” There should be absolutely no doubt about the meaning of the word debt in Matthew 6:12. It simply does not have financial overtones, either explicitly or implicitly.
Luke 11:4 is a parallel scripture in which Luke uses the word harmartia which is translated sins. That word is used 174 times in the Greek New Testament, 172 times it is translated sin, 1 time sinful, and 1 time offense.
Furthermore Matthew 18:21-35 expounds on the same topic and subject manner as Matthew 6:12,14-15 where debt is used in a parable, with the point being the same debt is sin. True enough in the parable the debt is a financial debt, however the word translated debt in Matthew 18:27 is not the same word used in Matthew 6:12. And a simple study of the parable reveals that the debt is like unto our sin debt, which is so great we couldn’t repay it to God if we lived a thousand lifetimes. We owe a debt to God because of our sins which we have absolutely no means to pay, but God freely forgives us, and because of this we are to forgive others in like manner as God forgave us.
In addition to these things apparently one would have to look long and hard to find any reputable scholar or commentator willing to accept such an interpretation of Matthew 6:12. From what I was able to dig up on the fly, NO source was willing to endorse any such idea. The overwhelming interpretation is simply that debts=sins, not money, not financial peace, financial dominion, or financial prosperity.

There are six petitions in this prayer. It is appropriate that the first three concern God directly: his name, his kingdom, his will. The Christian’s primary concerns therefore are that God’s name be hallowed, that his kingdom come, that his will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Only then are the next three petitions introduced, and they have to do with man directly: our daily food, our sins (“our debts”), and our temptations. Sin is pictured in the prayer as a debt. Sin incurs a debt which must be discharged. In Aramaic, which is the language Jesus probably uses in preaching this sermon, it is not uncommon to refer to sin as a debt. ~D.A. Carson, The Sermon on the Mount, pg.61-62,68

“Sin is not nowdays a popular word. Men and women rather resent being called , or treated as hell-deserving sinners.” Barclay then goes on to explain there are 5 different words translated sin in the New Testament “The fifth word for sin is the word opheilema which is the word used in the body of the Lord’s prayer; and opheilema means a debt. It means a failure to pay that which is due, a failure in duty. There can be no man who will ever dare to claim that he has perfectly fulfilled his duty to man and to God: such perfection does not exist among men.”~ William Barclay, The Gospel of Matthew, pg.219-221

The confession of debts is in relation to our sins or debts owed to God.”~Myron S. Augsurger, The Preacher’s Commentary, pg.82

“The Greek word for debts in the New Testament appears only here and Romans 4:4. It is clear that Jesus and Matthew intended the word to mean “sins” here (Luke 11:4). The choice of this word reflects the fact that all sins place us in debt to God.”~Stuart K. Weber, The Holman New Testament Commentary, Matthew, pg. 82

“Our sins are debts.”~Matthew Henry, The NIV Matthew Henry Commentary in One Volume, Matthew, Pg. 28

“The sinner and the debtor are most certainly related. Sin makes us all debtors to God.”~The Wycliffe Bible Dictionary, Debt, pg. 444

Debt is used as a synonym for sin in Mt 6:12. The word chosen is to emphasize our duty of forgiveness.”~Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, Debt, pg. 183

Here’s the point: Those in Berea “were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” Acts 17:11. The church in most cases is simply unwilling to hold its ministers accountable. People don’t want the confrontation and controversy which comes with holding someone accountable to be true to the context of the Word. We are too often simply unwilling to divest ourselves into any kind of deep study of the Word, and so such statements go unchallenged because frankly the congregation doesn’t know the difference. As such the prosperity gospel grows in influence in churches which claim to be Apostolic, i.e, teaching and conforming to the Apsotles’ doctrine. That sounds good, but it is like the Mormons saying they believe in grace. As one man commented, “you are using God’s vocabulary, but not God’s dictionary.”
It is true that God desires to bless us, and it is true that the Bible speaks of favorably of prosperity. It is also true that the Bible allows for teachers of the Word to be compensated by the saints. However, the Bible also speaks quite sternly against covetousness, making merchandise of the people of God, warns of people who will make religion a profitable business, taking advantage of those who don’t know any better, speaks against people being taught to give through compulsion, speaks against giving to get, and instructs New Testament saints “You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And DON’T GIVE reluctantly or IN RESPONSE TO PRESSURE.”2 Cor 9:7 (NLT) (emphasis added)
I believe it is time that the church demand contextual responsibility from its preachers. And that preachers make it their desire to be faithful stewards of the Word of God, not peddlers of cheap doctrines, popularized by con men in the most literal sense. One need not be an enemy of such men who have been influenced by the prosperity doctrines. Paul withstood Peter to his face because Peter was in the wrong. They continued to have a great relationship, Peter even referred to Paul's letters as scripture. Just because I'm pointing out these issues don't assume my motive is evil. In fact to assign a motive without knowing the true intents is to falsely accuse or bear false witness against your neighbor. I have not assigned an evil motive to any man in particular, what I am saying is this prosperity theology is complete error and as God's people we need to recognize that error, expose that error, and abandon that error as fast as we can.
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  #14  
Old 12-28-2011, 07:18 AM
shag shag is offline
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Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel

I appreciate what U bring to this forum, Jason. Even tho you've backed off a little, don't quit all together. I like to learn from ya.
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  #15  
Old 12-28-2011, 08:11 AM
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Digging4Truth Digging4Truth is offline
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Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Titus2woman View Post
Well... I rather just have someone ask me to throw money at them while they preach than tell me how I will be struck dead instantly and spend eternity in a tormenting hell for robbing God if I do not allow them to extort 10% of my families gross income plus offerings.
T2W... somehow I figure that you would throw change... that stuff can hurt.
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  #16  
Old 12-28-2011, 08:12 AM
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Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel

I've been in the "money chunker" circles and I've been a "money chunker".

But I'm feeling much better now.
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  #17  
Old 12-28-2011, 12:39 PM
NorCal NorCal is offline
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Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel

So, in your Post Modern church, how does the Power Bill get paid, the Building Loan get paid, the Property Taxes, the Parking Lot repaved, the walls repainted, etc, etc, etc.

If you want to live by "New Testament Standards" give ALL that you have to the church. Even they found out that doing that did not work. So guess what, the Old Testament teachings of Tithes and Offerings works to maintain your place of worship.

If it is going straight into your pastors pocket, then your church is doing it wrong.

I do agree with Jason that the Lords Prayer has nothing to do with Tithes and Offerings.
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  #18  
Old 12-28-2011, 12:58 PM
TGBTG TGBTG is offline
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Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel

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Originally Posted by NorCal View Post
So, in your Post Modern church, how does the Power Bill get paid, the Building Loan get paid, the Property Taxes, the Parking Lot repaved, the walls repainted, etc, etc, etc.

If you want to live by "New Testament Standards" give ALL that you have to the church.
Giving ALL that you have is not a NT standard. This is the NT standard:
2 Cor 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

The person who gives ALL should do it cheerfully from his heart
The person who gives 10% should do it cheerfully from his heart.


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Originally Posted by NorCal View Post
Even they found out that doing that did not work. So guess what, the Old Testament teachings of Tithes and Offerings works to maintain your place of worship.
Where did you get this from?
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  #19  
Old 12-28-2011, 01:02 PM
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Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel

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Originally Posted by RandyWayne View Post
I'm surprised your surprised. This is the way things have always been taught when we were in the UPC during the 80's in Wisconsin.

As far as the bolded goes, if I ever heard a preacher say that I would probably throw an egg, Randy Johnson style, at him -then walk out.
Who carries eggs with them to church? Lol
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  #20  
Old 12-28-2011, 01:11 PM
Nitehawk013 Nitehawk013 is offline
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Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel

1, one, uno instance of NT shows the people giving all and living with all things common. It is not echoed in any other NT letter. Nor is it recorded in early Church history to my knowledge. This argument is dishonest at best.

Second, you are asking the wrong question. The proper question would be "should we have expensive buildings and massive debt for church buildings to begin with". Nowhere are we commanded to go and build church buildings. You have to look centures, as in hundreds of years) past the Apostles to find the dedicated church building become common.
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