Question on Ephesians

[Jay]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

They also did not make churches a "Professional job" back in those days. There were no business meetings. It was not considered a "corporation" until the institution of IRS 501 C 3 tax-exempt status. Church leadership was not "passed down" to upcoming ministers that were son's or grandson's as if they inherited a business. I've seen this happen in my region for the past 30 years. Out of all the churches here, there is virtually only one church who voted for a fresh face to pastor.

It was a calling for the men of God. Take the scripture where Jesus told the 12 disciples in Luke 9:1-6 to preach the Kingdom of God and to heal the sick. If they encountered one person while on the road, such as in the case of the Ethiopian Eunuch, or to a crowd of thousands, they preached the gospel,baptism of the Holy Ghost the same and did not require a tithe.

How did the Church become a money-making store that people are mandated to come to every fellowship with one man calling the shots?

You need to study your church history, because that has indeed happened in the past. 'Business meetings', churches being passed to family members in the ministry, and often the ministers did nothing else, which made it a full time position, and did in fact teach the tithe. I have made church history a specific study of mine for a few years now, and all of these elements have existed, even from the days of the book of Acts.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by NorCal

I think your view of "Professional job" or "Corporate Transfer" is flawed.
1) Paul trained ministers in the churches he started. Whether it was his "son" Timothy, or any other such man he chose to lead the "church" when he left.
2) Not all pastors transfer a church to a family member when they "retire". See DKB and his church.
3) If it is passed to the pastors son, it is usually a good reason and has been "vetted" by the deacons or other "assistant pastors"
4) The "Corporation" Status is so that money can be properly tracked. This limits the chance of money being stolen or miss used.

1. Sister, Timothy was not Paul's son...he was Paul's convert. Paul was full Jewish and Timothy's father was a Greek. ACTS 16:1,2 & 3.

2. I specifically said I've seen this passing of churches down for the last 30 years "in my region". I have no idea what pastors do in other regions.
If it is passed to the pastor's son, in this region, it is usually because the people don't want an "outsider" over them. They don't want change, fresh blood, fresh ideas, fresh preaching. Not necessarily always the pastor's fault but then my bad for not explaining further.

3. Since when is the Bride of Christ made into a "corporation"? Sorry, but that is not New Testament teaching. That is extra biblical. Corporations are considered nameless, faceless, soulless entities that the courts ruled to be "persons". It is an artificial person. Have you read the IRS's rules on the 501 C 3 status? They limit the church in many ways. Pastor's are not free to preach certain things and they can add to their rules anytime they want to. Certain limitations in there, if violated, can cause the tax-exempt status to be revoked...possibly all the way to the very beginning to where millions of dollars, plus interest, plus penalties are imposed. Are we not supposed to have freedom in Christ to preach or say anything the Holy Ghost lays on their hearts?

Consider what happened to Indianapolis Baptist Temple Church.

I dare say that the organized church system worries too much about how much money they can draw in. Does the church really need state of the art sound systems and television monitors to get the message across?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

1. Sister, Timothy was not Paul's son...he was Paul's convert. Paul was full Jewish and Timothy's father was a Greek. ACTS 16:1,2 & 3.

2. I specifically said I've seen this passing of churches down for the last 30 years "in my region". I have no idea what pastors do in other regions.
If it is passed to the pastor's son, in this region, it is usually because the people don't want an "outsider" over them. They don't want change, fresh blood, fresh ideas, fresh preaching. Not necessarily always the pastor's fault but then my bad for not explaining further.

3. Since when is the Bride of Christ made into a "corporation"? Sorry, but that is not New Testament teaching. That is extra biblical. Corporations are considered nameless, faceless, soulless entities that the courts ruled to be "persons". It is an artificial person. Have you read the IRS's rules on the 501 C 3 status? They limit the church in many ways. Pastor's are not free to preach certain things and they can add to their rules anytime they want to. Certain limitations in there, if violated, can cause the tax-exempt status to be revoked...possibly all the way to the very beginning to where millions of dollars, plus interest, plus penalties are imposed. Are we not supposed to have freedom in Christ to preach or say anything the Holy Ghost lays on their hearts?

Consider what happened to Indianapolis Baptist Temple Church.

I dare say that the organized church system worries too much about how much money they can draw in. Does the church really need state of the art sound systems and television monitors to get the message across?

The problem lies with the government interfering in religious affairs, and the increasingly litiguous culture that we are in. Churches had to do certain things to protect themselves from people who would prey on them. Also, until the 1960s a church never had to worry about its tax exempt status, but then LBJ came and changed the tax code to restrict the rights of ministers to say certain things when in a ministerial position (he was indignant that a large number of pastors endorsed his rival). This has since continued and accelerated as PC became the order of the day.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Jay

You need to study your church history, because that has indeed happened in the past. 'Business meetings', churches being passed to family members in the ministry, and often the ministers did nothing else, which made it a full time position, and did in fact teach the tithe. I have made church history a specific study of mine for a few years now, and all of these elements have existed, even from the days of the book of Acts.

Oh my! I must have hit a nerve. Are you a pastor or a minister that collects the tithe? Or just a saint who firmly believes in tithing?

I prefer to be thought of as a giver than a tithe payer because it is patently false that the New Testament teaches it. New Testament teaching is that God loves a cheerful giver and it is not specified who to give it to.

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

(II Corinthians 9:7)

Tithe Payers must give 10% of their money or are told they might just go to that hot place down there. That is a conditional salvation teaching...negates the blood of Christ and the Cross.



Church history and what they've always done and what is actually written in the New Testament are two different stories, Jay. The Catholic church has always had their dogma since it's inception, claiming it came from the Apostles...but most of it doesn't. They say Peter is their first pope and that his bones can be viewed through some glass box located within the Vatican. HUH? There is no scriptural basis for this either. They say that Mary veneration is appropriate because she is the mother of our Blessed Savior, but is it New Testament teaching?

I don't know what you've read in the Book of Acts concerning tithe, I never read any commandment from the Apostles that taught the tithing doctrine.

The tithe today is not even remotely the same as the Old Testament tithe. I did an extensive and exhaustive study on the Jewish tithe. We are not Jewish Levites and there are no commandments to Gentiles to live as the Jew lived. In fact, Jewish law was done away with because the Priestly order changed to Jesus, who is not a Levite, but from the tribe of Judah. Hebrews Chapter 7 is very clear changing of the Priesthood.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Jay

The problem lies with the government interfering in religious affairs, and the increasingly litiguous culture that we are in. Churches had to do certain things to protect themselves from people who would prey on them. Also, until the 1960s a church never had to worry about its tax exempt status, but then LBJ came and changed the tax code to restrict the rights of ministers to say certain things when in a ministerial position (he was indignant that a large number of pastors endorsed his rival). This has since continued and accelerated as PC became the order of the day.

The church could have resisted it's restriction under the first amendment rights.

The Internal Revenue is not even government institution anyway. Google the origins of the Federal Reserve System.

[Jay]

The problem has been that the courts sided with the federal government, and it has only been in recent years that churches have had the wherewithal to challenge the law. However, victories against it have only kept churches from losing their status and not overturning the law. The root of that problem is that until the 1930s-1980s churches tended to stay away from politics and encouraged their members to do the same. That is why as certain moral issues have become political, churches are increasingly under the threat of the IRS.

No, your issue on tithing was not nerve touching. What you do with your money is between you and God. However, not everything was done away with from the Old Testament. Paul in 1 Corinthian 9 and 1 Timothy 5 states that the minister of the Gospel is to live by the Gospel. If he must, then he has to take outside employment (Paul was a tentmaker when he needed money), but that should not be where his income comes from. In 1 Timothy 5:17-18 and in 1 Corinthians 9:9, Paul quotes Deuteronomy 25:4, which commands that the ox be able to eat as he works. This is the justification to the modern tithe.

[Jay]

Further, you are not correct about how churches have been passed down. Perhaps you were not aware, but throughout history this has been done. One of the best examples is Jonathan Edwards who in the 1720s took his uncles' church (I think that is the right relationship). This is not uncommon. Many others have done the same thing, and if not a biological descendant, then a protoge (it amounts to about the same thing in the end).

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Jay

The problem has been that the courts sided with the federal government, and it has only been in recent years that churches have had the wherewithal to challenge the law. However, victories against it have only kept churches from losing their status and not overturning the law. The root of that problem is that until the 1930s-1980s churches tended to stay away from politics and encouraged their members to do the same. That is why as certain moral issues have become political, churches are increasingly under the threat of the IRS.

That was the mistake the church leaders made for all of us and we are all now paying that price. Congress made no law. They delegated taxes to an outside entity called the Federal Reserve system. It's not even an agency of our Federal Government.

Originally Posted by Jay

No, your issue on tithing was not nerve touching. What you do with your money is between you and God. However, not everything was done away with from the Old Testament. Paul in 1 Corinthian 9 and 1 Timothy 5 states that the minister of the Gospel is to live by the Gospel. If he must, then he has to take outside employment (Paul was a tentmaker when he needed money), but that should not be where his income comes from. In 1 Timothy 5:17-18 and in 1 Corinthians 9:9, Paul quotes Deuteronomy 25:4, which commands that the ox be able to eat as he works. This is the justification to the modern tithe.

I respectfully submit that this is poor justification then.

I Timothy 5 is not a "tithe" scripture. Neither is I Corinthians 9:9. Let's take a look at that scripture:

For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? I Cor 9:9

While Hebrews was not "nerve touching" to you, that may be because you must not understand Hebrews 7. If you truly studied that chapter, you would see that Gentiles are not under the law and the Jews are no longer under that law either. The tithes went to the Levitical Priesthood,{and it was not money unless they had to travel a long way. But then the money was turned back into substance once they returned} The Priesthood clearly has changed to Jesus, who came from the tribe of Judah. None of the Apostles preached tithing to Jesus or to themselves. There are no more sacrifices of animals, no tithe to be given to the upkeep of the Levites. Are any of the preachers in the Christian church Levites? If they were, and if we were to give a tenth like the children of Israel did, the pastors would not like what they got from their church and they would have to be a Levite because they would then be under the law.

We are not living in the promised land where the Levites did not obtain an inheritance of land like the rest of the tribes. God is their inheritance.Numbers 20:20-24.

Today the indwelling of the Holy Ghost is the earnest of our (Jews and gentiles) inheritance. Our full inheritance is in Heaven. I Peter 1:4
We cannot have it both ways. (old and new testament) We either must live in the ceremonial law of Moses or we can live freely in the Holy Spirit who leads and guides us into all things.

Now look at I Peter 5:1-4

1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Even God did not put such oppressive measures on any person, tribe or system to pay a weekly tithe. Tithes were only given once every three years per household and it was a tenth of the increase of the land. (crops, animals etc)

27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
28 ¶At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
Deuterotomy 14:27-29

Is this what the leaders of Christ's church want? For their inheritance to be the tithe received from others? Or do they want I Peter 5:1-4?


I have no problem giving of my sustenance to a preacher if it is preached freewill, for we know if he indeed labors for Christ, as we all are supposed to do. If we all have received the Holy Ghost, then we all have some sort of ministry to work. I realize the pastors must have something to sustain him and his family. I have a preacher in my family and I knew somewhat the trials and money problems he has gone through. However, what I take issue with is that some Preachers teach that one MUST give 10% tithe every week or he/she is cursed if they do not. I've heard it preached that people who do not give tithes won't make it to heaven. Or that bad things will happen to him if he doesn't cough up 10%. That is not scriptural. Plain and simple. But hey...like you....if you want to go back into the old law of Moses and give your "tithe" every week, that is between you and God likewise, but then you would be outside of Christ because the order of the priesthood is changed to Him.

Now if a preacher were to preach God loves a cheerful giver and explain that the local church needs money gifts to pay bills and that the pastor likewise needs a living, else he would need to work to pay his bills, then that is a more honest approach than to hammer the people over the head with a tithing doctrine that is not New Testament commandment.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Jay

Further, you are not correct about how churches have been passed down. Perhaps you were not aware, but throughout history this has been done. One of the best examples is Jonathan Edwards who in the 1720s took his uncles' church (I think that is the right relationship). This is not uncommon. Many others have done the same thing, and if not a biological descendant, then a protoge (it amounts to about the same thing in the end).

What people have done throughout the centuries is not always in line of what is in God's Word. Just because Jonathan Edwards took his uncles church does not mean it should be a precedent for today's ministers to have a family dynasty in a church system.

Far too many pastors become dictatorial with nobody in the church system that has any guts to stop some of the nonsense rules they impose on people. Jeremiah has some pretty tough things to say to pastors who abuse the flock.
Jeremiah 3:15 also says: And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
(Jeremiah 3:15)

How can that be if generations of one family, all of whom were taught by the same people (esp if they are of the dictatorial nature) keep a stranglehold on the people?

Jesus came to give us life and more abundantly, not beat us up over legalisms and strangle us with rules.

Also keep in mind that I am not saying all pastors are errant, abusive and dictatorial. I know for a fact that in some places the pastor is the one who gets the beating from the church members.

However, let me once again make it clear that I am talking about certain pastors in my region who have hurt a many people and made it nearly impossible for them to find another area church to worship in or be restored back into a church from sin or mistakes they made. Or worse yet, to be ostracized because they have doctrinal disagreements.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jay

The problem has been that the courts sided with the federal government, and it has only been in recent years that churches have had the wherewithal to challenge the law. However, victories against it have only kept churches from losing their status and not overturning the law. The root of that problem is that until the 1930s-1980s churches tended to stay away from politics and encouraged their members to do the same. That is why as certain moral issues have become political, churches are increasingly under the threat of the IRS.

No, your issue on tithing was not nerve touching. What you do with your money is between you and God. However, not everything was done away with from the Old Testament. Paul in 1 Corinthian 9 and 1 Timothy 5 states that the minister of the Gospel is to live by the Gospel. If he must, then he has to take outside employment (Paul was a tentmaker when he needed money), but that should not be where his income comes from. In 1 Timothy 5:17-18 and in 1 Corinthians 9:9, Paul quotes Deuteronomy 25:4, which commands that the ox be able to eat as he works. This is the justification to the modern tithe.

The first centuries of Christianity didn't see tithing. They shared all that they had and generously gave to their elders to meet the needs of the ministry. The Catholic church tried to institute tithing several times and it didn't become church wide practice until the 700's.

The tithe actually limits resources to the ministry. For example... consider a church of 120 with members that faithfully tithe. The tithe requirement is one issue that keeps many others from attending. Frankly, they can't afford to be a part of the body of Christ. Now... consider another pastor. He doesn't require a tithe. He simply asks that the saints always come ready to give to the needs of ministry and the church. He requests that those who feel led vow (or pledge) to give a certain percentage or amount to support the ministry. He has also guest spots on several local Christian radio venues and of course requests support for the ministry from those who feel blessed by his ministry. His church has over 1500 members.

Guess what... the non-tithing pastor has far more resources coming in and available for the work of God and his needs. The tithe is actually a form of bondage. Even televangelists know that tithing binds up a ministy's finances. That's why the function on voluntary love offerings.

You have massive ministries throughout the world that don't require tithing. You have massive charities that don't require a 10% donation. Why does "small town church USA" think it will not survive unless it DEMANDS 10% from it's members or they should "move on down the road because they've robbed God"?