We want america back

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Today we have homosexual marriage LEGAL in 6 states. Not only that but all across the US we are not allowed to even speak openly against it. Where I work you will be fired for it. Several states are preparing bills where it will "gay history" will be TAUGHT IN THE SCHOOLS!
And were all just supposed to "be nice" and keep our mouth shut while children and grandchildren are TAUGHT HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR in the schools of America!

Yes I would far rather see the America of my childhood than the hideous creature it has become today.

i am encouraged by what, the Lord stated when he was on the cross, and how we should be with this ever growing sin in the nation.

Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

[pelathais]

The "god" mentioned in our founding documents was a Deist God who was far removed from any human interaction. Notice what the Declaration of Independence gives as one of the primary motivating factors for the creation of this (then) new state:

"...the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them."

The Declaration of Independence states that first, "the Laws of Nature" have entitled us to form our union among the other "separate and equal" countries then in existence. This is a specific appeal to what is known as "Natural Law." It is a concept that had been used since antiquity to describe the "best" and preferred conditions under which human beings ought to live. It isn't founded upon the Christian faith or the Bible, though obviously, the Bible and Christianity have always interacted with these ideals.

The next component here, "... Nature's God..." also does not refer to the Biblical Deity, but rather to the Deist "Watchmaker" god who established the "Natural Law" and then left everything to develop according to that Natural Law.

If we are to use these statements as a polemic against those who wish to destroy the foundations of our great nation, then we really should be accurate and honest with just what the founder's intents were. "Original intent" is a watch word of much of the Conservative movement. We don't have to become Deists like our founders to enjoy the blessings they prayed upon us, but we should embrace those founders and accept them for who they were.

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by Falla39

America was founded on Christian principals etc. They acknowledged God in
the setting up of the Constitution. She was founded on biblical principals, etc.
Today, because many American people have turned their backs on godliness
and righteousness and did nothing, prayer has been taken out of the public
schools, and other rights continue to be taken away.

The churches are made up of American citizens and others have joined them.

what exactly were those godly principles? slavery? denying women and minorities the right to work, vote and own property? was america godly when it fought the vietnam war, wwI, wwII, the korean war, the gulf war? was america godly when it massacred indians or during the jim crow south that lasted til the 1960's? I believe many constitutions mention god. If there is no prayer in school, it is because it is unconstitutional. the very document that is "godly". imagine being a christian in an islamic state, would you want muslims taking their country back? secularism is good for every state, that is what the founders intended. keeping religion out of poltics.

[MarcBee]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

It never did....

[canam]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

what exactly were those godly principles? slavery? denying women and minorities the right to work, vote and own property? was america godly when it fought the vietnam war, wwI, wwII, the korean war, the gulf war? was america godly when it massacred indians or during the jim crow south that lasted til the 1960's? I believe many constitutions mention god. If there is no prayer in school, it is because it is unconstitutional. the very document that is "godly". imagine being a christian in an islamic state, would you want muslims taking their country back? secularism is good for every state, that is what the founders intended. keeping religion out of poltics.

Its not uncontitutioanl only an athiest made it so ,its freedom of religion, not freedom from.Why are the christians always the problem not the muslims and the athiests ?

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by canam

Its not uncontitutioanl only an athiest made it so ,its freedom of religion, not freedom from.Why are the christians always the problem not the muslims and the athiests ?

public schools are state run. the state cannot be endorsing one religion over the other or religion in general when there are non believers present. it's not the role of the state. it is the role of the church and parents. i suppose you are smarter than nine supreme court justices? it would be interesting to read a dissenting opinion, if anyone can post.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

what exactly were those godly principles? slavery? denying women and minorities the right to work, vote and own property? was america godly when it fought the vietnam war, wwI, wwII, the korean war, the gulf war? was america godly when it massacred indians or during the jim crow south that lasted til the 1960's? I believe many constitutions mention god. If there is no prayer in school, it is because it is unconstitutional. the very document that is "godly". imagine being a christian in an islamic state, would you want muslims taking their country back? secularism is good for every state, that is what the founders intended. keeping religion out of poltics.

It may be helpful to keep in mind that "America" didn't "massacre the indians..." nor some of the other things you mention. There were criminal incidents and even terrible things that at least appeared to have broad support at the time, but later generations denounced them. But, you can't lay the blame upon "Americans." My own Cherokee blood sort of boils when I hear that. I'm a proud American and I never "massacred" anyone nor did any of my forebears.

Jim Crow? Who abolished Jim Crow and wiped out that unjust system? Americans. Why not give "America" the credit for abolishing something that only a minority of people ever supported any how?

Also, WW2 and the other wars were engaged for noble purposes, though war itself is often far from noble. Even the Vietnam War, while it ended up being a polarizing event, was a just cause. The implementation of that "war" was always ham-fisted and the policy of never even attacking the North who were attacking Americans in South with wanton brazenness was plain stupid.

Look at what happened when Americans pulled out of South Vietnam. Some of the worst genocides of the 20th century occurred. Our presence held back that evil.

I don't think that this is even one of those "Is the glass half full?" types of debates. Over all, for the past 404 years, Americans have been a force for good in the world.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by canam

Its not uncontitutioanl only an athiest made it so ,its freedom of religion, not freedom from.Why are the christians always the problem not the muslims and the athiests ?

I'd have to go with DM on this one:

"...secularism is good for every state, that is what the founders intended. keeping religion out of poltics."

Our founders had left a European continent that was riven by incessant and bloody religious wars. They wanted no part of that system. And yes, "freedom of religion" does include the freedom to be "free of religion."

The First Amendment reads in part: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

What's interesting about those "anti-prayer" cases is that there is no law stating that the kids can't have a prayer during a graduation exercise or whatever. It's just the courts that have ruled such and the courts have the power to remove large amounts of money from the hands of the defendants in these cases and to give it to the plaintiffs.

This is not an "unconstitutional" thing. It is an "extra-constitutional" thing. There is nothing in the Constitution that keeps the courts from "legislating" from the bench. The American judiciary is often an unchecked power with life-time appointments almost guaranteeing that the judges are never held accountable.

But with regard to the founders, they were secularists all, when it came to whether or not religion should have a place within the body politic. Our system right now is just trying to come to terms with how to best balance out the wanton judicial fiat and thus to ensure that the second part of the above: "...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

"Congress isn't the problem here, but how do we keep the courts and the executive branches from "prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by pelathais

It may be helpful to keep in mind that "America" didn't "massacre the indians..." nor some of the other things you mention. There were criminal incidents and even terrible things that at least appeared to have broad support at the time, but later generations denounced them. But, you can't lay the blame upon "Americans." My own Cherokee blood sort of boils when I hear that. I'm a proud American and I never "massacred" anyone nor did any of my forebears.

Jim Crow? Who abolished Jim Crow and wiped out that unjust system? Americans. Why not give "America" the credit for abolishing something that only a minority of people ever supported any how?

Also, WW2 and the other wars were engaged for noble purposes, though war itself is often far from noble. Even the Vietnam War, while it ended up being a polarizing event, was a just cause. The implementation of that "war" was always ham-fisted and the policy of never even attacking the North who were attacking Americans in South with wanton brazenness was plain stupid.

Look at what happened when Americans pulled out of South Vietnam. Some of the worst genocides of the 20th century occurred. Our presence held back that evil.

I don't think that this is even one of those "Is the glass half full?" types of debates. Over all, for the past 404 years, Americans have been a force for good in the world.

pel. I am not a historian, but who killed off the indians? Denouncing the act generations later doen't bring back the dead.

why and how was jim crow abolished? black americans had to suffer humiliation and white business owners didn't want a segregated economy where black business owners were getting rich. the whole freeing of the slaves and black integration is in the best interests of rich, white americans. minorities to fight wars, cheap labor, millions of consumers and minority businesses are kept from growing and competing.

I agree that wwII was a just cause but why did we go to vietnam? if communism was the peoples' choice, why not let them determine their own future? Rich white capitalists having their way supported by ignorant conservatives. While some wars may be noble, they are never "godly". I agree that america is a great country, but it has become great by much sacrifice and I get bothered by the whitewashing of history and saying america was a godly country. America has proven its greatness over time and in my opinion, times are better now than at anytime in its history.

[aegsm76]

It is sad to see that a lot of you have bought into the propaganda that is put forth by the secularists.
Go back and read the letters and writings that the founding fathers put out and you will see that the vast majority believed in an active, living God.
Go back and look at every state occasion and see that they had prayers, real prayers to this same God.
Quit believing the propaganda and go beyond the little snippets that the secularists use to support their positions.