DA No Longer an OP

[Orthodoxy]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

The problem with the initial evidence doctrine is that if one really holds to it then everyone who has never spoken in tongues is lost, no exceptions. That and of course that it is absent from scripture.

I personally do not hold to the "initial evidence" doctrine. However, the Assemblies of God affirms that tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Yet they also affirm that salvation is by faith alone. See this portion of the statement of faith taken from James River Assembly's website:

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit

The word ghost in the 16th-century King James Version of the Bible meant only what we today understand by the word 'spirit'.

All believers are entitled to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit, and therefore should expect and earnestly seek the promise of the Father, according to the command of our Lord Jesus Christ. [Some references in the Bible speak of "the Holy Ghost and fire." Fire, an image commonly associated with the Holy Spirit, suggests the purging, cleansing action, and zeal of the Holy Spirit which continues the work of spiritual growth begun at salvation.]

The baptism in the Holy Spirit was the normal experience of all believers in the early Christian church. With the experience comes the provision of power for victorious Christian living and productive service. It also provides believers with specific spiritual gifts for more effective ministry (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4,8; 1 Corinthians 12:1-31).

The baptism in the Holy Spirit is separate from salvation, and follows the new birth experience (Acts 8:12-17,10:44-46,11:14-16,15:7-9). With this baptism come such experiences as an overflowing of the Spirit (John 7:37-39; Acts 4:8), a deepended reverence for God (Acts 2:43; Hebrews 12:28), an intensified commitment to God and dedication to His work (Acts 2:42), and a more active love for Christ, for His Word, and for those who have not yet become believers (Mark 16:20).

The Initial Physical Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit

The baptism of Christians in the Holy Spirit is accompanied by the initial physical sign of speaking in other tongues (unlearned languages) as the Spirit of God gives them audible expression (Acts 2:4).

This form of speaking in tongues is basically the same as the gift of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:4-10, 28). The differences is the purpose and use. The manifestation of tongues can be observed in the life of every Spirit-filled believer at the initial infilling. The audible expression of tongues should also continue to function in the Spirit-filled believer's personal prayer life. However, the gift of tongues (sometimes called "messages in tongues") operates publicly, usually in congregational worship settings. This gift is followed by the gift of interpreting the tongues. Both are given to individuals within the church. Their purpose is for the spiritual benefit of the individual and the congregation.

[Justin]

It looks like DA has averted his attention away from LS and the HMH movement.

[mizpeh]

Dan hasn't been a Oneness Pentecostal for a long time.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

how can you be "born of the spirit" without speaking in tongues? You can believe in initial evidence and the light doctrine and see people saved who haven't spoken in tongues. what is your opinion of that idea?

Bologna.

If someone is saved according to the light they had, but never spoke in tongues, then one admits speaking in tongues is not necessary. Furthermore it can be carried (and has been) to those outside of the Chrisitan faith, so that some teach that the Hindu who walks in "all the light they had" or Mulsim, or pagan, will be judged according to that light.

There is only one way for every human beig on earth to be saved, and that is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Orthodoxy

I personally do not hold to the "initial evidence" doctrine. However, the Assemblies of God affirms that tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Yet they also affirm that salvation is by faith alone.

I fail to see how it can be both ways. If someone is saved by faith, then they must have the Spirit. You cannot be saved, and not be regenerated by the SPirit of God (the new birth). At the time we are justified by faith we are adopted by God into the family of God, we are joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8), as the children of God, we are no longer children of wrath (lost).

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I fail to see how it can be both ways. If someone is saved by faith, then they must have the Spirit. You cannot be saved, and not be regenerated by the SPirit of God (the new birth). At the time we are justified by faith we are adopted by God into the family of God, we are joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8), as the children of God, we are no longer children of wrath (lost).

They aren't saying the Spirit is not recieved at all or iS inactive in the conversion process.

You may not understand how they hold to salvation apart from Spirit Baptism, but it is the predominate view among Pentecostals and Charismatics alike.

Even among those who baptize in Jesus Name, I believe the majority believe salvation occurs apart from Spirit Baptism (notice I did not say the majority of UPC).

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

They aren't saying the Spirit is not recieved at all or iS inactive in the conversion process.

So is the Spirit received in part? If one truly holds to this view how can they consistently say that when one speaks in tongues it is "intitial evidence" ?
Even if one says the Spirit is for "empowerment" and not salvation, if they hold to the initial evidence doctrine then how can they CONSISTENTLY claim the one who has not spoken in tongues, does indeed have the SPirit, if tongues is the evidence. It does not follow.

Originally Posted by Hoovie

You may not understand how they hold to salvation apart from Spirit Baptism, but it is the predominate view among Pentecostals and Charismatics alike.

I understand the thoery, I don't think it is consistent with Biblical doctrine. Whether or not the view is predominate or held by the majority of pentecostals has no bearing on its truthfulness.

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Even among those who baptize in Jesus Name, I believe the majority believe salvation occurs apart from Spirit Baptism (notice I did not say the majority of UPC).

Which puts them in a real hard place, since the Bible tells us that if any man has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His. At least the UC three steppers are consistent in their view.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

So is the Spirit received in part? If one truly holds to this view how can they consistently say that when one speaks in tongues it is "intitial evidence" ?
Even if one says the Spirit is for "empowerment" and not salvation, if they hold to the initial evidence doctrine then how can they CONSISTENTLY claim the one who has not spoken in tongues, does indeed have the SPirit, if tongues is the evidence. It does not follow.

I understand the thoery, I don't think it is consistent with Biblical doctrine. Whether or not the view is predominate or held by the majority of pentecostals has no bearing on its truthfulness.

Which puts them in a real hard place, since the Bible tells us that if any man has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His. At least the UC three steppers are consistent in their view.

I will try to be very brief. The majority of Christians believe that when one asks Jesus Christ to come into his heart, the Lord does come in as the Holy Spirit and justification/salvation/regeneration happens. The Holy Ghost Baptism is an empowering experience when the Holy Spirit comes upon a person who is already saved. The Holy Ghost baptism can happen seconds after a person gets saved; or a couple years later like the 120 who were already saved under Jesus' ministry but were baptized in the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost; maybe days later like the Holy Spirit came upon the Samaritans through the laying on of hands some time after their salvation and water baptism; three days after Saul's conversion on the road to Damascus he was baptized in the Spirit; seconds or minutes after the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius and his friends when they believed Peter's preaching and were saved; within minutes after the Ephesians were saved and water baptized in Acts 19 they received the Holy Ghost baptism by the laying on of hands.

[Aquila]

I believe that salvation is composed of several different things.

First, Christ's death on the cross was propitiatory. Meaning that He was the recieved all the wrath and anger from God that was rightfully ours on account of our sins. Therefore God's anger, wrath, and judgment has been appeased. God has no reason to be full of anger or wrath towards the elect.

Second, Christ's blood brought an atonement, satisfying the Law and reconciling the elect to God.

Third, faith in Christ justifies the believer when they put faith in Christ. This is Justification, and it is by faith alone (Romans 5:1). When one is justified they stand just in God's sight, wearing a righteousness that isn't their own. The believer is now robed in the righteousness of Christ, not his or her own. Being justified they might now approach the Lord and freely receive the Holy Ghost.

Fourth, upon receiving the Holy Ghost the believer's previously dead and alienated human spirit is infused with life. This is because they become one with Christ through the Holy Spirit. Now they are partakers of the new nature. This is theologically known as Regeneration. Now the believer has a new spiritual nature. The previous sinful spiritual nature is accounted as being crucified and buried with Christ. A regenerated person is a new creature. They are now one with Christ. This is where tongues come into play. It's believed by most Pentecostals to be the intial evidence of this experience.

Fifth, after being regenerated a believer is now adopted into the family of God, God being his or her Father. This is because the very nature of God, the Holy Spirit, is residing within them and they are new creatures. Now are they the sons and daughters of God.

Sixth, the believer matures in Christ. The human spirit is now regenerated and has a new nature by virtue of the indwelling Holy Spirit. But the believer's mind (soul) has yet to be "renewed". The believer is also still in an unglorified body. Thus all the memories, habits, experiences, desires, hormones, etc. are still resident in the mind and body. This is called, "the flesh". The mind must be renewed through study and application of the Bible's truths. Essentially this is a retraining that continues throughout the believer's lifetime. Also the believer faces the challenge of denying the body it's desires by prayerfully resisting the body's desires and impulses. This isn't done through "effort" however. It's done by faith through the Spirit. This is where many get the Christian life all wrong and find themselves all tangled up into legalism. The Christian is dead to the law, so there is no law to obey. The Christian's challenge is to submit to the ultimate will of the Father conserning their salvation... that they be conformed into the image of Jesus Christ Himself. We are not to be made into the image of UPCI or any other church denomination or organization. Our aim should be to image Jesus in our lives by allow Christ, through the Spirit, to live His life out through us. It isn't about what we do... it's about who we are. In sports they say keep your eye on the ball or be one with the ball. In the Christian arena we are to keep our eyes on Jesus and be one with Jesus. We must attempt to live every moment with increasing oneness with Him until our very identities are consumed by Christ Jesus (as we experience Him through prayer and in the Scriptures), this is taking on the mind of Christ. And this is theologically called Sanctification. This begins at water baptism, the first true step of Christian obedience performed by the believer.

Please note: Sanctification has little to do with sin in the believer's life. No believer is "sinless". Being "sanctified" or "holy" is to be "called apart for sacred use". Yes, God uses imperfect people who have sins that they struggle with. Some have the impression that to be "sanctified" or "holy" they must be "sinless". Not so. They must be "surrendered", willing to do whatever God bid them. As they serve God HE will mold and make them, convicting them, showing grace, and delivering them from sinful strongholds until sin has less and less foothold in their lives.

So... there ya have it. Aquila's opinion regarding the process we call "salvation".

Now about the baptism of the Holy Ghost and Salvation. It's obvious that the Holy Ghost will NEVER chose to reside in an inclean temple. Therefore, for the believer to be able to receive the Holy Ghost, they must already be "justified by faith" and declared just, wearing Christ's righteousness, in God's sight. If they weren't, they'd never receive the Holy Ghost.

Why don't some people receive the Holy Ghost? Good question and there are many opinions. Since the Holy Ghost is a gift that can only be given by God, it appears that He doesn't give it to just anyone but His elect.

Peace out!

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

how can you be "born of the spirit" without speaking in tongues? You can believe in initial evidence and the light doctrine and see people saved who haven't spoken in tongues. what is your opinion of that idea?

If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. I John 3:15