Revelation 7:4-8 - Page 2

TGBTG · #11 04-09-2011, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

I personally disagree that Israel will be head of the nations. God is done with national distinction as far as HEAD, etc. The church is Jew and Gentile in one body.

I don't think God is done with national Israel (maybe not as head, He certainly is not done with national Israel). The context in which "Israel" is used in Galatians and Romans 11 should not be confused.

Jer 31
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

God emphatically says that He will not cast off Israel as a nation in spite of all that they have done.

mfblume · #12 04-09-2011, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGBTG

I don't think God is done with national Israel (maybe not as head, He certainly is not done with national Israel)

Right. My point was AS HEAD.

Quote:

The context in which "Israel" is used in Galatians and Romans 11 should not be confused.

EXACTLY. I made a whole post just about that on the forum some time ago showing ISRAEL in Rom 11 is NATURAL Israel, no the church.

UnTraditional · #13 04-09-2011, 02:38 PM

God has never turned away from Israel. The same Gospel that was preached to all nations started at Jerusalem. The fact is, God is going to and fro throughout all nations through His people to bring one and all to Himself. Jew, Gentile, all men have the same Gospel, for all have only one hope for salvation, the Lord Jesus Christ.

The 144,000 is symbolic, I believe. Remember, what John saw was in a vision, and so we have to interpret what he saw in the vision as such.

Monarchianism · #14 04-09-2011, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGBTG

I don't think God is done with national Israel (maybe not as head, He certainly is not done with national Israel). The context in which "Israel" is used in Galatians and Romans 11 should not be confused.

Jer 31
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

God emphatically says that He will not cast off Israel as a nation in spite of all that they have done.

Ask Jason about that. God has turned to the Gentiles that they may worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, while Israel remains blind. Even natural Jews have a zeal for God, but they have no knowledge. The Gentiles are required to pray for Israel. Without our prayers, I am persuaded that their nation would be wiped out by terrorists. They are a nation, but would you really say that they are the "head" at this moment?

Monarchianism · #15 04-09-2011, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

God has never turned away from Israel. The same Gospel that was preached to all nations started at Jerusalem. The fact is, God is going to and fro throughout all nations through His people to bring one and all to Himself. Jew, Gentile, all men have the same Gospel, for all have only one hope for salvation, the Lord Jesus Christ.

The 144,000 is symbolic, I believe. Remember, what John saw was in a vision, and so we have to interpret what he saw in the vision as such.

Read my comment above this.

Monarchianism · #16 04-09-2011, 04:27 PM

Chapter fourteen of Revelation caught my attention. Rev. 14:1 is about the 144,000. Then if you read on it says in verse 4 "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins." 144,000 all Men.... ?

Sam · #17 04-09-2011, 04:28 PM

How literal do you believe those numbers like 12,000 from each tribe and 144,000 total are?

What is the difference between the 144,000 of the early part of Revelation 7 and the "great multitude" of the latter part of that same chapter? Are these two separate groups or two descriptions of the same group?

Are the 144,000 of Revelation 7:3-8 and the 144,000 of Revelation 14:1-5 the same group?

Monarchianism · #18 04-09-2011, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by berkeley

What are you reading? The Onion?

The majority is blind. They rejected Jesus at the crucifixion, and they remain with that attitude today towards Him.

Monarchianism · #19 04-09-2011, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam

How literal do you believe those numbers like 12,000 from each tribe and 144,000 total are?

What is the difference between the 144,000 of the early part of Revelation 7 and the "great multitude" of the latter part of that same chapter? Are these two separate groups or two descriptions of the same group?

Are the 144,000 of Revelation 7:3-8 and the 144,000 of Revelation 14:1-5 the same group?

You tell me.

mfblume · #20 04-09-2011, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam

How literal do you believe those numbers like 12,000 from each tribe and 144,000 total are?

What is the difference between the 144,000 of the early part of Revelation 7 and the "great multitude" of the latter part of that same chapter? Are these two separate groups or two descriptions of the same group?

Are the 144,000 of Revelation 7:3-8 and the 144,000 of Revelation 14:1-5 the same group?

I believe so.

Notice there are 12,000 from 12 tribes. 12 X 12000 - 144,000.

Notice also that the NEW JERUSALEM is measured as follows:

Revelation 21:16 KJV And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

It is a cube. And while there are 6 FACES to a cube, there are 12 EDGES. 12 x 12,000 = 144,000

Revelation 14:4 KJV These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

VIRGINS is a spiritual term referring to those FAITHFUL TO CHRIST ALONE... Paul presented the church as a chaste virgin to Christ. Firstfruits was used by Paul as well to describe the saints in his day. Following the Lamb speaks of taking up our crosses and denying self.

Note that the 144,000 stand with the lamb on Mount Zion, and they are STANDING while verse 8 says Babylon falls. They have the Father's name on their foreheads. The forehead speaks of the will (Ezek 3:8). What better way to show THOSE WHO ENTER THE KINGDOM, WHOSE HOUSES ARE ON THE ROCK AND DO NOT FALL, WHO DO THE FATHER'S WILL, than to show these people with the Father's Name on their foreheads standing on a ROCK MOUNTAIN?

Revelation 14:1 KJV And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 14:8 KJV And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Matthew 7:21 KJV Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:24-27 KJV Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: (25) And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. (26) And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: (27) And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.