World Changers

[A.W. Bowman]

That is not a problem with me - my friend.

[Digging4Truth]

I'm still enjoying this thread Brother Bowman. I notice that our reaction to hearing that bad times are coming are framed by what we're going to lose. Recently a friend of mine had her cell phone go out. She has been in a complete frenzy and is losing her mind to not have her cell phone at her constant beck and call.

We have "fearful" reactions because we love this life and we love the conveniences of this world. That, in itself, should be a wake up call for us.

But that is why these types of changes bring great revival because when all our toys are taken away the world finds themselves suddenly congizant of just how empty our lives are without our daily conveniences and entertainments (myself included)

We find it easy to say... my life would be empty without God. Sometimes I wonder.

[A.W. Bowman]

Thanks D4T.

Yet, as I march further down this country lane, I am becoming even more uncomfortable. It is becoming more like walking down a dark alley in some large city.

I think I will have my final 'planned' installment ready this week. Even so, I think we will also have the opportunity to look at today's events from a different point of view from Godsdrummer. The sharing of such different perspectives are valuable, if one is to come to a settled decision on how they will accommodate particular biblical issues such as this one.

But, you have also brought up a very important aspect of our Western culture. The loss of our electronic toys, entertainment, and communication devices. Ninety nine percent of all of my personal communications and ministry activities are done over the Internet. When my computer goes down or the Internet connection fails, I go into free-fall! What is wrong with that picture?

/sigh/

[Godsdrummer]

Art greetings and God bless, to continue I will try and aproach this from a point of view that is not condesending. Looking at those verses you quoted in relation to what so many call the end time. I want to present a view that although seems to be from a completly different window is still a view of the same hillside. Some times we have looked through a narrow for so long that we have come to think that the world is only as big as that small part that we see.

I say this because those in Apostolic movements for the most part have thier eyes on such a small part of the word of God they refuse to see anything, or consider anything else as the word of God. They have a unique understanding of God, and his eternal power and divinity (oneness of the godhead) that they think that is all there is to the word. I have heard the phrase "we have the whole truth" all my life that until I was in my mid twenties studying things out on my own from a different point of view I began to see that we did not have all we thought we had.

With those thoughts in mind lets look at some more of the so called end time referances.

While we are looking for the advertised end-time revival, God is also telling us that while many may come into fellowship with us, there will be all the more leaving our fellowship when the difficult times come upon the saints in its full force (Revelation 13:6-10).

I don't understand why use Rev. 13 to note christians leaving the fellowship, further why refer to Christians falling away under persicution? All down through history when the kingdom of God goes through persecution it has always grown not gotten smaller. Let me give an example:

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I have heard this passage used to preach an apostacy in "end times" all my life, but to my recolection it is the only one. And this should never be used in that context either. Let us first look at the word use by Paul that is translated "falling away". Is a word that means to depart, as in separate or divorce. In order for it to mean an defection from truth there must be adjetives leading up to the word. Paul is speaking words of encouragment in the beginning of this chapter "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. ". The way that he presents this is they know the day of the Lord is at hand (in thier life time) What was this day of the Lord?

Some comming day beyond thier life time? No these words were writen as encouragement to those Christians that were in Thesselonica that were going to hear of by letter or word of mouth or even the spirit of God. Of the grave destruction and happening that would come upon Jerusalem. So how is he encouraging them with the words there must come a departure first. And how will this strengthen and ecouraged the saints abroad that hear of thier bretheren in Jerusalem under seige for 3 and 1/2 years?

Because the departure was when Rome pulled thier armies back for a short period and all the Christians that were in Jerusalem having been forwarded by Christ fled the city and were saved.

Read the context of the scripture here, this does not refer to a time 2000 years in the future, Paul is not prophesing, he is repeating what has aready been propheced in incouragement to those saints in other parts of the world.

Let me ask you if you can put down everthing you have been told about OT prophecy that you have been told has not been fulfilled. Reading instead that the wording or words that we think have not been fulfilled are apocoliptic descriptions of the prophets as was the way they did things in those day. (much like todays preachers that strecth truth just a bit to make it more dramatic) You will see what God told the prophet he would do he did in those days!!! not carring anything down to the future.

With that thought in mind that when God pronounced judgment on a generation, if they did not directly repent he was true to his promise and that judgment came to pass within that generation. Why do we think God is going to change the way he did things for 4000 years. Did he not tell us in his word he gave us prophets in our day. (Epesians 4)

I am going to make a broad statement, "The bible is not a book of thou shalt nots on how to be saved, neither are there prophecies that pertain to us today, they are all history. What the bible is, a guide book to lead us back to relationship with God that was lost in the garden. With examples of those that failed to find that relationship and those that did. Finally it is filled with the promises to all that find that relationship."

When we realize our position and who we are in Christ and stop looking for Christ to come set up an earthly kingdom because we are to lazy to fulfill our calling as his kings and priest to the world. God will not do anything we have been given the ability to do our selves. And we have the abilty to bring peace to the world, we also have the ability to feed and take care of all those that have not food. But we don't even take care of our own in the church and our familys which is a primary commandment even before paying a pastor.

I think I have said enough today, sorry if I have offended anyone.

[A.W. Bowman]

While some of your comments may have caused a few to stop and consider your position, I don't think anyone took a great personal offense at your words.

There are a number of different understandings and positions of 'end-time' prophesy and events, and they should all be explored and tested.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by A.W. Bowman

While some of your comments may have caused a few to stop and consider your position, I don't think anyone took a great personal offense at your words.

There are a number of different understandings and positions of 'end-time' prophesy and events, and they should all be explored and tested.

Art as what you say is true, part of what I don't want to do is sound like I am the only one with the answers and no one else is right. Even thought I might think I am right I have been proven wrong before. Also I want to have the same spirit towards other that I want them to have towards me.

If we think we have all the answers then we cannot learn anything new. Trust me when I say when some one argues a point, even if it is the way I used to teach and preach it I open the word and look at things again from the perspectice they are comming from. I am either comfirmed im my heart of what God has shown me or I study more.

[Godsdrummer]

From Daniel to Revelation, we have been told that as the day of the Lord approaches the entire earth will go through an ever increasing level of turmoil, not unlike the travails of a woman giving birth.
I want to address something that come to mind as I read back through your first post. As I want to get back on track of your original thought.

While the entire world has been experiencing the early stages of this world changing process, the western hemisphere has been relatively quiet. Of course, over the past hundred years there have been a few events, such as the eruption of Mt. St. Helens, a couple of major earthquakes in Alaska, California and even in the mid west. So, while the rest of the world is experience even greater volcanic eruptions, greater earthquakes, tsunami, and storms that produce great magnitudes of destruction. In addition, with the growing human population, the threat of one or more pandemic diseases grows more acute every year.

It is my understanding that according to all futurist the end time are going to take place in 7 years. ( Daniels 70th week) in view of the smallness of the endtime how can we stand a say that the signs have been happening for several hundred years. Further driving my point home to say the rest of the world has been already experiencing this world changing process we have been quiet. Again does not follow the way things are to be according to scripture. World judgment is world judgment to happen all at once within the 7 year period of time futurist predict. One can't keep changing the time frame.

All of these things are being reported throughout the world in greater number, frequency and magnitude of severity. Then there seems to be a growing awareness to the possibility of the earth being hit by large chunks of space debris, from old spacecraft with nuclear fuel onboard to large asteroids.

Of course these are being reported with greater frequency, we have the internet, television, radio, cell phones, we also have news media that report and build up those events sensationaizing them more than they would be just a few years before.

The point is, this world is not any worse or better than it was 500 years ago. Just more people. It is all in perspective, the old saying viewing things from the perspective of the glass half full or half empty makes a big difference in the way things look. We are and have been viewing things from the perspective of a half full glass.

We preach and teach one must work for salvation to make it to heaven,Glass Half full, God saved us to have relationship with us in this body in this life, not the life to come.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

...It is my understanding that according to all futurist the end time are going to take place in 7 years. ( Daniels 70th week) ...

Of course these are being reported with greater frequency, we have the internet, television, radio, cell phones, we also have news media that report and build up those events sensationaizing them more than they would be just a few years before. ....

just a couple of thoughts by one who is a dispensationalist, pre-tribber.

There are lots of things I don't know or understand about prophecy. People who are a lot better than I and who are a lot smarter than I disagree among themselves on stuff like this. I am not an expert and don't claim to be. I purposely do not spend much time studying this stuff. I had a pastor (F.E. Curts) who was considered a "Bible Teacher" many years ago and taught at conferences, etc. He had a book on the Tabernacle which many loved but I've heard him say that he would not put anything about prophecy into print because some times he changed his mind on it and did not have it out there in writing.

A friend of his, Bro. S. G. Norris of ABI infamy had put out a tract showing how Benito Mussolini was the Antichrist. After Mussolini was deposed and publicly dragged through the streets, Bro. Curts jokingly said, "Well, they just killed your Antichrist." Bro. Norris said, "I wish I had that tract back."

It is my understanding that the 7 years of tribulation or Daniel's 70th week is not all of the tribulation but just the last 7 years of it. We don't really know how much time passes between what we call the rapture and the beginning of the 7 year period.

What are usually called "signs" of the end or of the Second Coming of Jesus are not signs of the rapture. It is my opinion that nothing HAS to happen before the rapture. There are things like false Christs, wars, earth quakes, famines, etc. that have happened all along but will be of much larger proportion during the tribulation. And, yes, because of increased communication, those things may not be happening more now than ever before. It may be that we are just now aware of them or that the reporting methods have improved.

It is my opinion that stuff like preterism, or pre- mid- or post-trib, or rapture, or whether Jesus returned at Pentecost on May 28, AD 30, or if the world ended in AD 70, etc. should not divide us. There are much more important things that we agree on.

[A.W. Bowman]

This will be my last post for a while on this forum.

Since the thrust of the discussion has moved from the events of the day, to end-time theology, let me suggest an excellent reference article, THE SEVENTY WEEKS OF DANIEL

Ill, see ya kids over on my boards, should you make it there.

Shalom

Art

[BroMatt]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Art greetings and God bless, to continue I will try and aproach this from a point of view that is not condesending. Looking at those verses you quoted in relation to what so many call the end time. I want to present a view that although seems to be from a completly different window is still a view of the same hillside. Some times we have looked through a narrow for so long that we have come to think that the world is only as big as that small part that we see.

I say this because those in Apostolic movements for the most part have thier eyes on such a small part of the word of God they refuse to see anything, or consider anything else as the word of God. They have a unique understanding of God, and his eternal power and divinity (oneness of the godhead) that they think that is all there is to the word. I have heard the phrase "we have the whole truth" all my life that until I was in my mid twenties studying things out on my own from a different point of view I began to see that we did not have all we thought we had.

With those thoughts in mind lets look at some more of the so called end time referances.



I don't understand why use Rev. 13 to note christians leaving the fellowship, further why refer to Christians falling away under persicution? All down through history when the kingdom of God goes through persecution it has always grown not gotten smaller. Let me give an example:

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I have heard this passage used to preach an apostacy in "end times" all my life, but to my recolection it is the only one. And this should never be used in that context either. Let us first look at the word use by Paul that is translated "falling away". Is a word that means to depart, as in separate or divorce. In order for it to mean an defection from truth there must be adjetives leading up to the word. Paul is speaking words of encouragment in the beginning of this chapter "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. ". The way that he presents this is they know the day of the Lord is at hand (in thier life time) What was this day of the Lord?

Some comming day beyond thier life time? No these words were writen as encouragement to those Christians that were in Thesselonica that were going to hear of by letter or word of mouth or even the spirit of God. Of the grave destruction and happening that would come upon Jerusalem. So how is he encouraging them with the words there must come a departure first. And how will this strengthen and ecouraged the saints abroad that hear of thier bretheren in Jerusalem under seige for 3 and 1/2 years?

Because the departure was when Rome pulled thier armies back for a short period and all the Christians that were in Jerusalem having been forwarded by Christ fled the city and were saved.

Read the context of the scripture here, this does not refer to a time 2000 years in the future, Paul is not prophesing, he is repeating what has aready been propheced in incouragement to those saints in other parts of the world.

Let me ask you if you can put down everthing you have been told about OT prophecy that you have been told has not been fulfilled. Reading instead that the wording or words that we think have not been fulfilled are apocoliptic descriptions of the prophets as was the way they did things in those day. (much like todays preachers that strecth truth just a bit to make it more dramatic) You will see what God told the prophet he would do he did in those days!!! not carring anything down to the future.

With that thought in mind that when God pronounced judgment on a generation, if they did not directly repent he was true to his promise and that judgment came to pass within that generation. Why do we think God is going to change the way he did things for 4000 years. Did he not tell us in his word he gave us prophets in our day. (Epesians 4)

I am going to make a broad statement, "The bible is not a book of thou shalt nots on how to be saved, neither are there prophecies that pertain to us today, they are all history. What the bible is, a guide book to lead us back to relationship with God that was lost in the garden. With examples of those that failed to find that relationship and those that did. Finally it is filled with the promises to all that find that relationship."

When we realize our position and who we are in Christ and stop looking for Christ to come set up an earthly kingdom because we are to lazy to fulfill our calling as his kings and priest to the world. God will not do anything we have been given the ability to do our selves. And we have the abilty to bring peace to the world, we also have the ability to feed and take care of all those that have not food. But we don't even take care of our own in the church and our familys which is a primary commandment even before paying a pastor.

I think I have said enough today, sorry if I have offended anyone.

Hi

You wrote ,"neither are there prophecies that pertain to us today, they are all history"

Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Please explain how this prophecy is history or has already been completed.