1. In Acts 2 those who rec'd the HG spoke in many different languages and each of the crowd heard ALL the disciples speaking in their own native tongue. This is not consistent with the "HEAVENLY LANGUAGE" position.
It does not say that. It does not say each of the crowd heard ALL the 120 disciples speaking in their own language. It only tells us EVERYONE was filled and spoke in tongues and that there were devout believers from other nations that heard them speaking in their own languages.
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2. Why are there not similar manifestations accompanied with infilling as the Day of Pentecost?
There are! Very often someone has spoken in tongues and someone else understood it...
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3. After Acts 2 we don't find evidence that anyone spoke in other languages, they only spoke WITH tongues.
The word tongues MEANS languages....
One more thing...there is no evidence everyone of the 120 there were speaking in a language someone else knew. It does not say that. It only says there were at least 14 languages recognized
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4. Could it be that this seems to indicate that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the Baptism of the Holy Ghost are 2 separate things? One sealing a convert's eternal salvation, and the other empowering the recipient with supernatural abilities.
You need to prove your first several assertions first in order to draw a conclusion
At what reference are you finding "Unknown" tongue?
Unknown tongues the term simply refers to the fact that they were speaking in a language they did not naturally learn. Otherwise it was them doing it, not the Spirit
It does not say that. It does not say each of the crowd heard ALL the 120 disciples speaking in their own language. It only tells us EVERYONE was filled and spoke in tongues and that there were devout believers from other nations that heard them speaking in their own languages.
There are! Very often someone has spoken in tongues and someone else understood it...
The word tongues MEANS languages....
One more thing...there is no evidence everyone of the 120 there were speaking in a language someone else knew. It does not say that. It only says there were at least 14 languages recognized
You need to prove your first several assertions first in order to draw a conclusion
Praxeas, first of all that crazy thing on your head is just that......crazy.
I believe we have discussed this before, forgive me, but I still think that John 20:22 plays a role in my argument and I find it hard to believe that the disciples would not have readily accepted something offered them, immediately.
As far as the manifestations being the same as you propose...not so...not in my lifetime. I would love to hear stories from anyone who has heard a rushing mighty wind or witnessed cloven tongues like as of fire appear. UNless of course it was symbolism.
ACTS 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that EVERY MAN heard THEM speak in HIS OWN LANGUAGE.
Not for sure I understand your first point when reading this scripture. They were also from every Nation under Heaven vs5. I do agree that there were in excess of a dozen mentioned.
Yes I agree that tongues means languages, in fat in vs 11 the crowd heard them speak the wonderful works of God. Acts 2 cannot support the heavenly language as basis.
Praxeas, first of all that crazy thing on your head is just that......crazy.
I believe we have discussed this before, forgive me, but I still think that John 20:22 plays a role in my argument and I find it hard to believe that the disciples would not have readily accepted something offered them, immediately.
As far as the manifestations being the same as you propose...not so...not in my lifetime. I would love to hear stories from anyone who has heard a rushing mighty wind or witnessed cloven tongues like as of fire appear. UNless of course it was symbolism.
ACTS 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that EVERY MAN heard THEM speak in HIS OWN LANGUAGE.
Not for sure I understand your first point when reading this scripture. They were also from every Nation under Heaven vs5. I do agree that there were in excess of a dozen mentioned.
Yes I agree that tongues means languages, in fat in vs 11 the crowd heard them speak the wonderful works of God. Acts 2 cannot support the heavenly language as basis.
The problem with systematic theology is in searching for scriptures to support a doctrine, anywhere along the way, logic and views expressed become equal voices.
A methodological approach will find the principle actions, and beginning shadows and build from there. In Genesis, at the tower of babel, the children of disobeidiance had their language confounded. The word Language could be tranlated "a border, a shore, or natural boundary as a bank of a river." God expressed in His infinate wisdom to put our voices as expressions of Identity.
Along with several opaque prophecies as was quoted in Isaiah, the future "new thing" was never really known or prophecied distinctly. But Luke prophecied a little more easily understood when he said these signs shall follow them that believe. They shall speak with "New" tongues.
The book of acts recorded two distinct manifestations in which we're discussing. #1 the vairious languages heard. #2 they spake with "cloven" tongues like as a fire.
The language factor God used to evangelize, or prophecy to the unbeliever, was a manifestation of "truth from God" The cloven tongues like as a fire was a manifistation of "truth from God" as a language from God displaying that God, of a surety, had taken the unruly member, the tongue, and given it a language of identity for its new border, or boundry, baptism of the spirit, and in the "church". Thus it was a confirmation to the already baptized, already repented, already following disciples.
The "heavenly language" question is a good one in that it identifies our tendacy to embrace pentecostalisms. But, the word is close to being turth if not totally true. The heavenly means, from heaven. yet, the scripture clearly defines it as coming From God, and unknown, and as the spirit gives utterance. That is the normal view and expression of the holy Ghost descending. i.e. "a voice from heaven"
This new thing, was openly discussed after Acts chap, 2, because the disciples had the revelator on the inside. 1st Corinth. 12-14 redefined the "gift" of tongues as the temperal, human necessity that is a manifestation from God to address the unbeliever, those used diversly in acts 2 to speak to the foreigners in Jerusalem. The multiple recordings of the Holy Gost baptismals in the book of Acts is the witness of apostles recieving the "baptism of fire"
Just as God confused the languages in disobeidiance, God united the language in the new birth, by a factor only the spirit truly understands.
The problem with systematic theology is in searching for scriptures to support a doctrine, anywhere along the way, logic and views expressed become equal voices.
A methodological approach will find the principle actions, and beginning shadows and build from there. In Genesis, at the tower of babel, the children of disobeidiance had their language confounded. The word Language could be tranlated "a border, a shore, or natural boundary as a bank of a river." God expressed in His infinate wisdom to put our voices as expressions of Identity.
Along with several opaque prophecies as was quoted in Isaiah, the future "new thing" was never really known or prophecied distinctly. But Luke prophecied a little more easily understood when he said these signs shall follow them that believe. They shall speak with "New" tongues.
The book of acts recorded two distinct manifestations in which we're discussing. #1 the vairious languages heard. #2 they spake with "cloven" tongues like as a fire.
The language factor God used to evangelize, or prophecy to the unbeliever, was a manifestation of "truth from God" The cloven tongues like as a fire was a manifistation of "truth from God" as a language from God displaying that God, of a surety, had taken the unruly member, the tongue, and given it a language of identity for its new border, or boundry, baptism of the spirit, and in the "church". Thus it was a confirmation to the already baptized, already repented, already following disciples.
The "heavenly language" question is a good one in that it identifies our tendacy to embrace pentecostalisms. But, the word is close to being turth if not totally true. The heavenly means, from heaven. yet, the scripture clearly defines it as coming From God, and unknown, and as the spirit gives utterance. That is the normal view and expression of the holy Ghost descending. i.e. "a voice from heaven"
This new thing, was openly discussed after Acts chap, 2, because the disciples had the revelator on the inside. 1st Corinth. 12-14 redefined the "gift" of tongues as the temperal, human necessity that is a manifestation from God to address the unbeliever, those used diversly in acts 2 to speak to the foreigners in Jerusalem. The multiple recordings of the Holy Gost baptismals in the book of Acts is the witness of apostles recieving the "baptism of fire"
Just as God confused the languages in disobeidiance, God united the language in the new birth, by a factor only the spirit truly understands.
Praxeas, first of all that crazy thing on your head is just that......crazy.
it keeps the feds, spirits and donut eating nebuchadnezzars out
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I believe we have discussed this before, forgive me, but I still think that John 20:22 plays a role in my argument and I find it hard to believe that the disciples would not have readily accepted something offered them, immediately.
If you are refering to where Jesus breathed on them. It does not say they received the Holy Spirit or were baptized with it. It could simply have been a form of commission or prophesy, like when the prophet binded the hands and feet of Paul and told him what awaits him
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As far as the manifestations being the same as you propose...not so...not in my lifetime. I would love to hear stories from anyone who has heard a rushing mighty wind or witnessed cloven tongues like as of fire appear. UNless of course it was symbolism.
I never refered to a rushing might wind or cloven tongus, so I don't know what you are talking about here. I thought we were discussing them speaking in langauges others understood. yes, as i said that still happens. As for the wind and fire...Luke said "like", He was using metaphorical langauge. We don't know WHAT the sound was unless it refers to the tongues and we don't know what the cloven tongues was LIKE as of fire unless that somehow also refers to tongues.
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ACTS 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that EVERY MAN heard THEM speak in HIS OWN LANGUAGE.
Right...it doesn't say each man heard ALL 120 speaking the same langauge. It just says each of the men that gathered there heard THEM speak in his own language. Nobody is disputing that those that came there hear someone speaking in their own langauge, but you indicated ALL 120 that were speaking in tongues was heard ALL speaking the same one language by each of those individuals in their own language and the grammar just does not show that.
In fact it's quite possible the men there understood more than one langauge.
First of all they were Jews and probably all spoke Aramaic. Second Greek was the common tongue at the time and Latin was beginning to take it over as the common tongue.
Act 2:7 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? Act 2:8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? Act 2:9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Act 2:10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, Act 2:11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians--we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God
Also consider that 120 were speaking...THEY were doing the speaking. The miracle was in the speaking, not the hearing. So either they all spoke 120 at the same time, the exact same words in the exact same langauge and then changed in unision to a different langauge and spoke the exact same words, or only some of the 120 were speaking or only some were speaking loud enough to be heard....because with 120 people all speaking at the same time different things it can be quite hard to understand.
however hearing different langauges at the same time is easier to distinguish.
also consider the possibility that by the time these men got there not all 120 were speaking in tongues now...some may have been praying in their own language or praying silently or meditating. All we know is about 120 were there. They were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues. Visitors came and heard their own langauge and the number of different langauges were about 14. Beyond that is supposition
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Yes I agree that tongues means languages, in fat in vs 11 the crowd heard them speak the wonderful works of God. Acts 2 cannot support the heavenly language as basis.
I've never heard anyone use Acts 2 to support anything other than when the Holy Ghost came they spoke in langages they did not know
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